Policy discussions like this would greatly benefit if people could resist the urge to use them to express their gratitude, trust and loyalty to the platform and its admins. Turning policy discussions into a loyalty contest gives them a very unhealthy spin. When open criticism on how things are done is (and can be) published on the platform itself that is the biggest show of trust already.

i have been here for few years and i dont see mods or admins abusing their power.
they are generally fair on their decisions and i dont see any problems with their policy.
they give their valuable time to keep this place in order and they are doing above average job.

if i happens to disagree with their policy then i will write them my issues and if that doesnt get fixed..i will leave.
it is that simple.

PS: i dont know what happened recently but it would be nice to keep such info public since we are all one family.

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

It's worth recognizing that most of the rules of this community come down to "what will people report" and "what is the judgment of the individual moderator looking at a thread today?" What counts as an interesting theoretical discussion (what I say...) vs. thread derailment (...the things you people do)? Or overtly political posts? When does posting about a go related book or service count as advertising?

I don't mean that it's a bad thing, but the application of the rules we've set for ourselves requires a lot of individual judgment. The only way to avoid that would be to have no rules at all.

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Occupy Babel!

For myself, if it is in the announcement section with it's own thread, a go related advertisement would be kosher.
If it's an advertisement on someone else's thread and the post smells like spam, then most likely someone should report it for handling if an admin or mod hasn't noticed it.
If there are reports from members on posts regarding inappropriate advertisement, then that's probably a judgement call for mods and admins whether it should be acted upon.
When someone posts a go related book or service which has relevance to the discussion on a thread, that's probably ok in most cases.

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http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

I couldn't disagree more. Applying a rule in a situation where that leads to a clearly perverse outcome, is an excellent reason to rethink that rule.

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Poka King of the south east.

Since Jordus abstained from any ownership influence when L19 was founded, this forum is run by the community.
This makes L19 very special and one can't compare it with privately owned forums.
The officials can't claim to represent the will of a "divine" owner, rather they represent the will of the majority of the active community.
L19 is a representative democracy with the advantages and disadvantages of this form of government.

To make the decisive actions made by the officials public, is is no way the same as having every decision open for debate.
The admins decisions would still stand, but the community would be provided with a feedback that I believe is necessary if we want L19 to continue to be an open community run forum.

Joaz says that he wants to handle things privately. If that meant silent diplomacy and ongoing communication I would be all for it...

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

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"The connection between the language in which we program and the problems and solutions we can imagine is very close" -- Bjarne Stoustrup

As noted in the TOS, if you are unhappy with another member's post, you should contact an admin. We're here to help.

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Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

This is not even close to being true. Jordus merely abstains from daily influence. But everything that happens here happens the way he wants it. And when things don't happen as he wants, he steps it and commands that things be changed. When that happens, we admins/mods do exactly as he says or we offer our resignation.

You might not see him. You aren't privy to the commands. But don't let that lead you into false assumptions. It still it private propery and Jordus still owns it. And he is the final arbiter.

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Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

This is crazy making. When L19 was being created, the refrain was "community, community, community."

• http://senseis.xmp.net/?ReplacingGoDiscussions
• http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=59
• viewtopic.php?f=14&t=64&start=20

Maybe there's some kind of point when everything changed, and we said "Jordus does whatever the heck he wants to, when he wants to", but I can't find anything hinting at that in the early discussions.

I get that legally, Lifein19x19.com is a domain name that is registered by Jordus, as an individual, that requests go to a server (or shared hosting) for which Jordus is the customer of some hosting company. Legally, these are the only things that give anyone (namely Jordus) any rights. My point is about how we view this forum in a nonlegal sense.

Let me be clear: I have few if any points that I would like to complain about concerning the administration of this forum, and can't remember any time I have had any complaint with Jordus in particular. This is not a vote of no confidence. But I do want to know how things work.

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Occupy Babel!

I think now would be a reasonable time to point out that although Jordus legally owns L19, it is paid for by the community. I would argue that this does give him some responsibility to respect the wishes of the users.

That being said, the current system is pretty good, generally speaking

If this thread isn't going to die any time soon, can a mod please change it to opaque moderation? It's like a splinter in my eye.

Two quotes by Jordus.

1. The goal of this site is to be "by the community, for the community".

2. Yes I am prepared to give ownership to the community.

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"The connection between the language in which we program and the problems and solutions we can imagine is very close" -- Bjarne Stoustrup

Some rules pass the test of time, some do not.
Also - times change and so the rules might need to change.

Without any way from the user to have an input, the few overworked admins might not even notice... until people move to a new forum.



Does what you say above only apply to the change suggestions you personally dislike, or to all change suggestions?

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- Bantari
______________________________________________
WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

If you change the rules to something like moderators must monitor the forum 24/7, I would highly disagree with that no matter how many people voted yes for it.

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http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

More to the point, such a vote would be meaningless in the absence of moderators willing to do it. Voluntary organizations are always subject to "anarchist" vs "democratic" considerations since nobody can be forced to do anything.

Hello L19,

First off, I would like to apologize for my extended absence from the forums. I went through a few life changes from finishing to school to moving to a different state and currently having no reliable source of internet. As my situation improves I hope to see you all much more often.

Addressing the issue of transparency, there have been some inquiry into our process of disciplining users. There are a few reasons we make the process private. The biggest reason being the privacy of the user in question. I know as a user I wouldn't want my business aired out to everyone. The same goes for the idea to have a public record of banned users. I wouldn't want anyone to know I was banned or have my name on public record as well.

I agree with the idea that a working system could always have room for improvements and we are always open to suggestions. If you have suggestions please give them, in fact I hope to see them. However; please don't be offended if the suggestion isn't implemented. It may not be the that the idea was bad, but that we are limited to our options and unable to implement it for some reason.

I will only give a short reply to the “Jordus is the almighty” stuff that happened here. While I like the idea of being an omnipresent god with amazing powers, I am not. This is a community forum ran for the community by the community through representatives chosen by the community. The only “power” I have ever “flexed” was to break stalemates that the admin discussion may have come upon.

Thank you guys for being such great forum members and for being a part of making the rich and fun community that surrounds one of our favorite hobbies.

See you guys again soon.

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I'm thinking...

I think you misunderstood me. I'm all for changing the rules when they don't work. What I dislike is the changing of the rules to correct their application.

Once that rule has been applied, I have no problem with the rule being changed from that point on.

What I'm strongly against is the changing of the rules based on who were they applied to and how strong he or his friends cry.

I have nothing against the proposal of changing the "self-promotion" rules (I'd vote for making them harsher, not weaker). I have much against discussing a mod decision that's been made based on the current rules that we've all accepted.



I agree.


Each and every one. No exception, ever.

Rules are to be changed, not broken. Because changes are made by and for the collective and breaks are made by, and for, individuals.

[admin]
This is slightly off topic, but relevant to the underlying issues.

Despite occasional claims to the contrary, I do not have great experience banning people. So I misused the ban page recently.
There is an option for choosing the length of a ban: one day, one week, one year, etc. If you want a length that is not among those listed, it defaults to permanent, and informs the member that his ban is permanent. It does not, TTBOMR, inform the admin.
I apologize for the alarm that it may have generated.
[/admin]

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Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Joaz, this is misleading, too. As may be clear by Jordus's post, you and I both know that daily mod decisions are handled by mods and not jordus. That may be ok, but let us not mislead people.

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be immersed

Just to provide some debate. A few reasons for having the process public: The biggest reasons for having warnings and bans public are it shows how the rules are being implemented so everyone, especially new people, knows where the boundaries are, it provides a record of accountability for the mods (I warned them here, they did it again there, so I had to ban them afterwards) and perhaps most importantly it shows the community when something is being done about a user that is acting out of line (i.e. everyone can see the warnings being given) rather than the silence that persists currently when this is happening. I notice that all these reasons put the good of the community before the good of the user (i.e. the user's privacy) and I suppose this is the crucial difference here.