Favorite Fuseki?

WhlteLotus · #1

Hey guys, I'm trying to learn some Fuseki, what is your favorite and what are its moves?

Also, why is it your favorite?

skydyr · #2

The thing to understand about fuseki is that a fuseki isn't a set of moves, it's a goal and strategy for how you want the game to develop. Some are oriented towards large moyos, some towards solid positions, some towards maintaining simplicity, some invite complex fighting. The moves that are played are just in furtherance of those goals.

The most important thing in picking a fuseki is to pick the goal, and then to play moves that you think work towards that goal. Sometimes your moves (or my moves) will be wrong, but that's okay. That's how you learn.

As an example, one fuseki that's been somewhat popular of late is the micro-chinese. The terminology is a bit confusing, but I am referring to the second example here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?MicroChinese

One of the goals in playing this way is based on the standard mini-chinese: http://senseis.xmp.net/?SmallChineseFuseki. There is a common wedge/invasion on the right side as a followup to the basic pattern here, and with the micro-chinese opening, black's stone is positioned in a way that black can play against the white group in a particular line that doesn't work as well with the mini-chinese, because of that difference. To really appreciate this, though, you have to know enough about the goals behind the mini-chinese and it's standard counters to decide that this is the way you want the game to go.

To start off, I'd suggest a couple openings as black that are quite different in feel, the san-ren-sei, and the orthodox fuseki. The san-ren-sei is based around a center-oriented strategy, where black will play against white's approaches to cede the corners and build a large center moyo. The orthodox fuseki aims to build up a solid corner and a flexible position for later fighting in the other. It does this by threatening to make a fantastic side position if white doesn't try to do something about it.

That said, one important thing to read is http://senseis.xmp.net/?HighConceptOpeningMyth

zaqxswcde · #3

As black, I use Kobayashi quite a bit, and orthodox to some extent. I am long past my san-rei-sei phase, and almost never play it. I use Chinese a decent amount as well, but never mini-chinese.

Loons · #4

I guess I still like this one:

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It often goes like this, I think, or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . 1 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Sverre · #5

My favorite fuseki is diagonal 6-4's as White, because it seems to lead to unpredictable and interesting games.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

DrStraw · #6

Recently I have been playing the moves show below as B and W. Of course, the position shown in on this board rarely occurs because the opponent rarely plays the same moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Eerika Norvio · #7

Two komokus as black, if cross fuseki all the better. No shimari, just approach and pincer if opponent approaches.

I haven't found any comfortable fuseki as white, so I just play Something.

Pippen · #8

I like split fusekis, i.e. where black plays its 3rd move as a split or white his 2nd. These fusekis are powerful since they avoid a moyo game and force you to play creatively. I still wonder why pro's do not play them more regularly, if at all.

SmoothOper · #9

Pippen wrote:

I like split fusekis, i.e. where black plays its 3rd move as a split or white his 2nd. These fusekis are powerful since they avoid a moyo game and force you to play creatively. I still wonder why pro's do not play them more regularly, if at all.

I like splits in some situations too, I think pros don't play them because they are considered too slow, because they don't prevent mini-Chinese or Kobayashi formations on the side. I suspect some openings devolve into a split formation by move 8 or 9.

shapenaji · **#10**

The Center Shimari

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . 3 , 1 . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A recent game that I played with it:

The primary idea is that you want to give your opponent 3 corners in exchange for 1 corner, an unassailable center position, and the first two approaches.

All of your extensions get to be longer and your opponent is under constant threat of attack.

Bill Spight · **#11**

Pippen wrote:

I like split fusekis, i.e. where black plays its 3rd move as a split or white his 2nd.

You mean

or

, right? And you mean a wedge, right?

Quote:

These fusekis are powerful since they avoid a moyo game and force you to play creatively. I still wonder why pro's do not play them more regularly, if at all.

Emphasis on the side in top level play faded a few centuries ago. More recently, in the past several years, pros have played the wedge even less in early play, as it is not dynamic. IMO, this recent avoidance of the wedge is a bit unfair.

Dusk Eagle · **#12**

shapenaji wrote:

The Center Shimari

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . 3 , 1 . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A recent game that I played with it:

The primary idea is that you want to give your opponent 3 corners in exchange for 1 corner, an unassailable center position, and the first two approaches.

All of your extensions get to be longer and your opponent is under constant threat of attack.

When I was in Seattle over the summer I was trying all sorts of weird fuseki against opponents of my level, including this, the great wall, and the tengen-then-invade-3-3. Overall results were pretty good, but I must say the game seemed harder for both sides when I did this.

wineandgolover · **#13**

shapenaji wrote:

The Center Shimari

The primary idea is that you want to give your opponent 3 corners in exchange for 1 corner, an unassailable center position, and the first two approaches.

All of your extensions get to be longer and your opponent is under constant threat of attack.

Is the center shimari really a stone better than a single stone on Tengen? Why?

Thanks.

Bill Spight · **#14**

wineandgolover wrote:

shapenaji wrote:

The Center Shimari

The primary idea is that you want to give your opponent 3 corners in exchange for 1 corner, an unassailable center position, and the first two approaches.

All of your extensions get to be longer and your opponent is under constant threat of attack.

Is the center shimari really a stone better than a single stone on Tengen? Why?

Thanks.

Oh, I think that it is rather more than a stone better. It's quite a good idea, IMO.

How come? After the New Fuseki era, pros have almost abandoned tengen on the first move. I think that is because the stone is rather weak. It can help in the corners as a ladder breaker or maker, and it can help if a fight moves into the center. But it makes no territory, OC, and as thickness it is not very strong. Adding another center stone -- maybe a keima is better? -- means that each stone bolsters the other. I think that a center shimari is as good as a corner shimari, maybe better.

This, OC, implies that White should approach the Black center stone right away.

shapenaji · **#15**

wineandgolover wrote:

Is the center shimari really a stone better than a single stone on Tengen? Why?

Thanks.

I agree with everything Bill said (especially white using their first move to approach)

But my 2 cents is that the biggest weakness of the tengen stone is that it can be isolated. A two stone center position really doesn't have that weakness.

It is slower. However, consider the following:

1) Tengen

Black takes Tengen and 2 corners, white takes two corners but then gets to choose the direction of the game by getting the first approach or reinforcement.

2) Center Shimari

White takes an additional corner, BUT is not in a position to follow up well against approaches. Since black gets the first approach, and can leave it, he also gets a second and third approach. It snowballs.

wineandgolover · **#16**

Thanks, Bill and Shapenaji for taking my question seriously. It was meant that way.

Interesting stuff. Counterintuitive to one raised in the corner, sides, middle school.

Uberdude · **#17**

I agree the centre shimari is an interesting idea and harder to play against than Tengen. Whether that's because it is better, or just I've played against it less I don't know. Dave Ward, a UK 4 dan, played it against me in a club game and said he had played it a few times after reading some Japanese professional's thoughts on it, maybe in a Go World? I won that game by outreading him in a fight. I also played against the centre shimari on OGS so put some thought into it. I also got some comments on the game in Korea from On Sojin 7p. Tragically my opponent died before it finished but it was a tough close game.

That game made me wonder if playing 4-4 as white was a mistake as black can approach from the side he wants (the lower side to form a box shape with the centre shimari) and then easily tenuki and white can't profitably attack the lone stone. Playing 5-3 at e3 would maybe be better.

SoDesuNe · **#18**

wineandgolover wrote:

Counterintuitive to one raised in the corner, sides, middle school.

A bit off-topic but I think this is also one of the many "proverbs" which often gets confused.
When I teach beginners the reason why players often spend the first four moves in the corners, I show them how efficient the corner is to make territory (you need less stones for the same amount of territory compared to the side and the center). This is all, I don't tell them they have to play in the corner, quite the opposite, I mostly tell how some pros played Tengen as first move.
The corner is just more territorily and thus easier to play, since the one with more territory at the end wins the game. If you start with the center you need to make these stones work which is - in my opinion - more difficult but of course an equally good strategy.

Bill Spight · **#19**

SoDesuNe wrote:

wineandgolover wrote:

Counterintuitive to one raised in the corner, sides, middle school.

A bit off-topic but I think this is also one of the many "proverbs" which often gets confused.
When I teach beginners the reason why players often spend the first four moves in the corners, I show them how efficient the corner is to make territory (you need less stones for the same amount of territory compared to the side and the center).

Takagawa makes the point that a more important reason to start in the corner than making territory is making a base. At the time it was thought that early plays gained around 10 pts., which we now know is a underestimate. So spending two moves just to make 11 pts. or so in the corner would not be worth it. OC, more is going on with a shimari than that.

The strength of the stones is very important, which is why a base is important. I just transposed that idea to the center shimari. Not that the second stone actually forms a base, but it does strengthen the initial center stone. Significantly, IMO.

tomukaze · **#20**

shapenaji wrote:

wineandgolover wrote:

Is the center shimari really a stone better than a single stone on Tengen? Why?

Thanks.

I agree with everything Bill said (especially white using their first move to approach)

But my 2 cents is that the biggest weakness of the tengen stone is that it can be isolated. A two stone center position really doesn't have that weakness.

It is slower. However, consider the following:

1) Tengen

Black takes Tengen and 2 corners, white takes two corners but then gets to choose the direction of the game by getting the first approach or reinforcement.

2) Center Shimari

White takes an additional corner, BUT is not in a position to follow up well against approaches. Since black gets the first approach, and can leave it, he also gets a second and third approach. It snowballs.

Would a viable approach for white be:

2) Centre Shimari for black.
White takes two corner stones and then one shimari in one of their corners. Black take two corner moves but white gets the first approach. Wouldn't this give white the initiative rather than black as you suggest above?

Favorite Fuseki?

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