It should be noted that even completely symmetric options often yield such differences. The noise is bigger than you might assume.

_________________
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.

Still I try to figure out how to adjust komi.

You mention a command line. Do you mean every command line in every GUI for a particular instance of KataGo? If so, does one add, say, komi=7.5 as another parameter or must this preceded by another gtp or analysis command, somehow as follows?



LizzieYZY seems to have three kinds of settings affecting komi:
- KataGo setting: show a) score or b) score & komi. Initially, (a) leads to -0.1 while (b) leads to ca. 6.6 for the score values on the stones.
- Engine setting: for each command line without any komi=7.5 parameter and area scoring, the list of engine settings has a Komi column with 7.5 in each row. This and some KataGo description of using such a komi by default lets me believe that this komi is being used.
- Komi field in the GUI menu bar: its value 7.5 results in roughly 38% percentages; its value 7.0 results in roughly 50% percentages. Now, I prefer the latter. However, what does it mean? Does KataGo still use the 7.5 of its engine command interpretation or does it then use 7.0? Or does the komi field in the GUI menu bar only affect the displayed values on the stones?

Currently, I use LizzieYZY in permanent gtp pondering mode without starting play against the engine. Permanently, I watch the top move values (percentages, visits, scores) on the stones and click whichever next move I want. I do not select any analysis command and LizzieYZY does not use analysis command lines.

So how do I ensure that, say, 7.0 or 7.5 komi is used while initially seeing close to 50% and 0.0 scores? Am I already doing it right now by
- not adding any komi parameter in the engine command line,
- seeing the engine settings stating 7.5 komi being used,
- selecting the different 7.0 komi in the komi field in the GUI menu bar and
- using the GUI's KataGo setting to show only the score?

I am sorry, but I do not have any experience with LizzieXYZ.

Tried the komi-command-line-issue in Sabaki, but it did not work as expected.

However, it is easy and quick to determine the "close" komi in Sabaki:

-- Attach your engine used for the first time via "Engines" > "Attach" > "Select-in-the-drop-down-lists". Set the komi e.g. to 7.5 (if this is not the default value).
-- Start analysis via "F4". (let's assume a win-rate of 39.x displayed).
-- Attach your engine used for the second time, but use a smaller komi, e.g. 6.5.
-- Start analysis via "F4". (let's assume a win-rate of 49.x displayed) ==> finished; use this komi in LizzieXYZ (if possible therein).

Otherwise:
-- Attach -- Analyse -- Repeat

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

After playing around with komi in LizzieYZY, it seems to work as follows:

- Every engine setting has its komi, which is loaded together with the engine.
- Later, the GUI komi value can be altered to override the initially loaded value.
- For area scoring, 7.0 komi gives closest values initially near (but not exactly at) 50% and 0.0 score.
- To see these values, the LizzieYZY KataGo setting for values displayed on stones should only show score (instead of score + komi). This nomenclature is strange, but so it is.

In general, I guess that every GUI might need some playing around with komi values until the behaviour is as desired (see above).

If you're studying theoretic openings, then sure, go for the fairest initial komi. That should be 7.0 with area scoring, and 6.5 with territory scoring.

If you're analyzing a real game though, and the real game actually used komi of 7.5, rather than 7.0, for example, I wouldn't bother adjusting the komi merely to switch between 38% and 50%. There isn't going to be a meaningful difference in play quality there. Mainly it's going to have an effect for winrates that are much more extreme. KataGo's analysis quality also doesn't diminish much in imbalanced games compared to older-generation AlphaZero bots that operated on winrate alone and didn't care about score. Even when far ahead or far behind, it will still suggest good moves.

Note that adjusting the komi will affect the answer you get back. For example, if you adjust the komi to make the winrate 50% instead of 97%, KataGo might in some sense be trying for more "optimal" lines due to treating the game as being close and needing to extract every point. But it might also avoid suggesting a simple line that in the *actual* game, with the *actual* komi, would have been a safe win that gives up 1 point but still leaves you ahead by 10 points, in favor of starting a huge messy complicated tactic that even KataGo isn't sure about the result of. It might occasionally even be the case that the simple tactic seeming to give up a point is more correct, if the complicated tactic is misevaluated.

So it depends on what you want. Even professional players often try to play a bit more solid and give up tiny fractions of a point when ahead, or to start complications when behind, and KataGo will do the same to a degree, so if you're trying to get practical analysis of a real game, you might prefer analysis to have those very mild biases baked in, in which case you wouldn't adjust komi, or would only adjust it partially. You might adjust komi fully if you wanted specifically to study the variability of move choice with komi, or if you were trying to find the theoretical sharpest and least-forgiving ways to play.

And yes, for LizzieYZY there's a setting where it reports the on-the-board score without komi being accounted for, and the naming about which one is which is weird. (But as you found, it's easy to tell by trial and error, the setting that reports the starting board being 50% winrate and yet 7 score is of course the on-the-board score mode).

97 ==> 50 is a bit extreme, isn't it?

I would like to turn briefly to win-rates BELOW 50%.
This is based on my experience with IH120, which is probably not completely transferable, since this is not a position from a real game.

For displayed win-rates > 35% (maybe even > 30%), I think that you can be sure that KataGo's favourites are all reasonable moves.

For win-rates < 20% (perhaps < 25%), there is a risk that KataGo will turn to desperation measures, but which do not really make sense.
In this case, it might be advisable to successively adjust the komi.

With IH120, leaving the range of 35% - 65% (maybe even 30% - 70%) does NOT automatically mean that the game is already decided!
Robert, so in the future, be more relaxed about differences of only a few percent.

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

Yep I think your experience is transferable, but probably to midgame positions with extreme and deep tactics, some of which end in huge winner-take-all swings. For opening and for "common" game positions, the komi and/or current winrate doesn't make nearly as much of a difference, to the degree that in practice I find it usually not worth spending the time fiddling with.

For example, KataGo plays still pretty reasonably in 3 or 4-stone handicap games, in which the initial winrate for white < 1%, and well enough to win against amateurs and usually severely challenge professional players (although 4 stones, and even often 3 stones is too much to overcome versus strong pros). Mostly good moves that gradually close the gap as the opponent makes mistakes or plays inefficiently, rather than mostly "desperation moves" that can be refuted and all just fail. In some ways, even too respectful of the opponent sometimes.

This is my current objective indeed.



Maybe, but there are limits to my capability of understanding the most complex AI fights...

***

Many thanks for your, as always, very useful clarifications!

In games between Karl's 40b-IH120 (with Black) vs. my 60b-IH120 (with White), White likes to enter a "normal" middle game (i.e. without Main Semeai), if she gets the chance to do so.
There exist several moments for playing my Guzumi (40b likes these a lot), which provide White with the above mentioned option.

Apparently, the "extreme and deep tactics" of the Main Semeai tend to be too extreme and too deep for Katago, too.


That is what I also wanted to emphasize.
I think that over time Robert will also become more "insensitive" to these parameters.


With the "desperation moves" in IH120, there are no longer any meaningful possibilities to turn the tide. In addition, the board is already very full of stones.
This should absolutely not be the case in the handicap games you described.

And yes, KataGo is very very smart in accumulating small advandages!

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

Katago TensorRT + LizzieYZY, filling of the physical 64GB RAM:

Event at ~2m visits of each of the two top moves: they swap their order of percentages and scores.

Event at RAM 91.9%,
swap file becomes relevant and is used up to 84.5%,
drop to RAM 77%,
increase CPU up to ~34% regular use (~16% is normal of 8C/16T),
drop to GPU ~84% (94~97% is normal),
VRAM 767 MB (about this is normal).

Event at RAM 99.8%,
the top three moves have 19.6m / 20.6m / 9.0m visits, respectively,
the top two moves have 48.0% or 48.2%, respectively; each has the score -0.2,
the third move has 48.8% and the score -0.1 (White to move),
LizzieYZY process is killed automatically (I do not know about the fate of Katago's process),
drop to GPU 0%,
increase RAM 99.9%,
0 MB RAM available,
Windows GUI very slow,
Windows does not free RAM to less than 99.9%,
restart Windows is still possible,
afterwards Windows is normal.

On a desktiop, one might use the reset button. If you plan to fill the RAM on a notebook, first inform yourself how to reset or cold-shutdown it. If you think that you can run Katago over night and see the result in the morning, you might need to activate permanent logging to an autosaved file.


EDIT

If you're using LizzieYZY, there should be a setting where you can configure it to pause analysis if the total number of visits hits a certain number. If you use a value that will be large enough for your purpose but that won't exhaust all your RAM, then it should be fine for you to leave it unattended overnight.

Nice, I will try this!

During the opening and middle game, Katago TensorRT on my RTX 4070 usually has 2700 ~ 7200 visits/s but occasionally up to some 15,000.

In a local L+D problem during the middle game, it is up to some 120,000 visits/s. The GPU has its usual 92~100% but there is up to 65% use of the CPU (8C/16T) for several seconds at up to 88°C so CPU and system fans occasionally become fast and loud so that less flat fan curves for lower RPMs might be better.

THANK YOU ROBERT!!!

I finally upgraded my gpu to a more modern model (4060 in my case). I had no idea what to do. Your extremely detailed instructions worked great!

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21