It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:41 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: status
Post #21 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:35 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1348
Location: Finland
Liked others: 49
Was liked: 129
Rank: FGA 7k GoR 1297
Araban wrote:
I never claimed Black kills, simply that White cannot live unconditionally. Thus, seki and (desperate) kos count. The continuation I had in mind was:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$+-------------------
$$|. 1 . 5 4 . . . .
$$|. . . . . 2 3 . .
$$|O O O O O X . . .
$$|X X X X X X . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . .[/go]


Sorry, I expressed my self poorly. When I said "kills" I meant "prohibits white from living unconditionally".

So: how does this continue?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$+-------------------
$$|. 1 . 5 4 . . . .
$$|. . . 6 . 2 3 . .
$$|O O O O O X . . .
$$|X X X X X X . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . .[/go]

_________________
Offending ad removed

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: status
Post #22 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:14 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1848
Location: Bellevue, WA
Liked others: 90
Was liked: 837
Rank: AGA 5d
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
tj86430 wrote:
Araban wrote:
I never claimed Black kills, simply that White cannot live unconditionally. Thus, seki and (desperate) kos count. The continuation I had in mind was:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$+-------------------
$$|. 1 . 5 4 . . . .
$$|. . . . . 2 3 . .
$$|O O O O O X . . .
$$|X X X X X X . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . .[/go]


Sorry, I expressed my self poorly. When I said "kills" I meant "prohibits white from living unconditionally".

So: how does this continue?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$+-------------------
$$|. 1 . 5 4 . . . .
$$|. . . 6 . 2 3 . .
$$|O O O O O X . . .
$$|X X X X X X . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . .[/go]

What I had in mind:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$+-------------------
$$|. 1 7 5 4 . . . .
$$|9 8 . 6 . 2 3 . .
$$|O O O O O X . . .
$$|X X X X X X . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . .[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: status
Post #23 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:24 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 476
Liked others: 193
Was liked: 83
Rank: Dutch 2 dan
GD Posts: 56
KGS: hopjesvla
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$+-------------------
$$|. 1 7 5 4 . . . .
$$|8 . 6 . . 2 3 . .
$$|O O O O O X . . .
$$|X X X X X X . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . .[/go]


Araban, seki == unconditional life! Continuing from your previous diagramme, I don't see how black can make ko or kill. Unless I'm missing something, white lives in seki, and if this is the only thing black can do, the status of the original group would be "alive as it stands".

In fact, I wonder which is better endgame for black: making this seki or forcing white to live small by playing the hane/connect in the original position.

_________________
My name is Gijs, from Utrecht, NL.

When in doubt, play the most aggressive move


This post by gaius was liked by: tapir
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: status
Post #24 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:45 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 305
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 16
Rank: hopeless
I thought seki counts as living unconditionally? To exclude seki I would think you need to say "white lives with territory".

/quibble

_________________
Main Entry: zing·er Pronunciation: \ˈziŋ-ər\
1 : something causing or meant to cause interest, surprise, or shock
2 : a pointed witty remark or retort

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: status
Post #25 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:14 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 774
Liked others: 137
Was liked: 155
willemien wrote:
thanks for all the answers. :bow:

I think it is a good shape for the Corner shapes page.

I always intended that page as a collection of different corner shapes that are just not territory. :grumpy:

and this is a rather simple ahape ( no cutting points or so)
and also it is one of the biggest shapes that is still not territory.


How about a page uncommon corner shapes? (I took the corner shapes to mean common corner shapes, it seems.) :geek:

Reasoning:
I still remember a certain 19k on IGS, when we played it was one of my first ten games there. Encouraged by his win, he gave me a long lecture after the game about the power of the sanrensei opening and other book knowledge. I fear that people may be inclined to learn the outcomes of the staircase ten as if they were as important as understanding the tripod group. As we see from Herman being 4 dan, the staircase ten isn't so important after all. :D Simply adding a phrase to that end, will do the trick I guess.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: status
Post #26 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:34 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 350
Location: London UK
Liked others: 19
Was liked: 19
Rank: EGF 12kyu
DGS: willemien
tapir wrote:
willemien wrote:
thanks for all the answers. :bow:

I think it is a good shape for the Corner shapes page.

I always intended that page as a collection of different corner shapes that are just not territory. :grumpy:

and this is a rather simple ahape ( no cutting points or so)
and also it is one of the biggest shapes that is still not territory.


How about a page uncommon corner shapes? (I took the corner shapes to mean common corner shapes, it seems.) :geek:

Reasoning:
I still remember a certain 19k on IGS, when we played it was one of my first ten games there. Encouraged by his win, he gave me a long lecture after the game about the power of the sanrensei opening and other book knowledge. I fear that people may be inclined to learn the outcomes of the staircase ten as if they were as important as understanding the tripod group. As we see from Herman being 4 dan, the staircase ten isn't so important after all. :D Simply adding a phrase to that end, will do the trick I guess.


At the moment CornerShapes consist of "only" 33 different corner shapes on the page.

And they are all (i think) easely accessable from the table of contents.
(the page is nothing more than a list of diagrams (one per shape) a bit of text and a link to a more specialized page)

It was always my intention to also to include positions that were bordering between "alive with territory" and "alive in seki" . (because that was a detail that I missed in other books)


(And so that readers of sensei's have sometimes the joy of turning an "alive with territory" corner into an "alive in seki" corner ) :o :cool:

If you really like you can make a page of common corner shapes and if you like i can give you a hand (It is not that difficult just copy and paste the whole page, remove the uncommen shapes, and that is it)
I think the biggest problem is deciding what is common and not and maybe finding pages that you want to link your new page )
success :clap:

_________________
Promotor and Librarian of Sensei's Library

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: status
Post #27 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:40 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1848
Location: Bellevue, WA
Liked others: 90
Was liked: 837
Rank: AGA 5d
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
Hmm, yeah I don't know why I was thinking seki shouldn't count as unconditional life for W :scratch:. In that case, the situation is much different. I guess there's something unsatisfying about a group that lives without points.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: status
Post #28 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:06 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2011
Location: Groningen, NL
Liked others: 202
Was liked: 1087
Rank: Dutch 4D
GD Posts: 645
Universal go server handle: herminator
willemien wrote:
tapir wrote:
willemien wrote:
thanks for all the answers. :bow:

I think it is a good shape for the Corner shapes page.

I always intended that page as a collection of different corner shapes that are just not territory. :grumpy:

and this is a rather simple ahape ( no cutting points or so)
and also it is one of the biggest shapes that is still not territory.


How about a page uncommon corner shapes? (I took the corner shapes to mean common corner shapes, it seems.) :geek:

Reasoning:
I still remember a certain 19k on IGS, when we played it was one of my first ten games there. Encouraged by his win, he gave me a long lecture after the game about the power of the sanrensei opening and other book knowledge. I fear that people may be inclined to learn the outcomes of the staircase ten as if they were as important as understanding the tripod group. As we see from Herman being 4 dan, the staircase ten isn't so important after all. :D Simply adding a phrase to that end, will do the trick I guess.


At the moment CornerShapes consist of "only" 33 different corner shapes on the page.

And they are all (i think) easely accessable from the table of contents.
(the page is nothing more than a list of diagrams (one per shape) a bit of text and a link to a more specialized page)

It was always my intention to also to include positions that were bordering between "alive with territory" and "alive in seki" . (because that was a detail that I missed in other books)


(And so that readers of sensei's have sometimes the joy of turning an "alive with territory" corner into an "alive in seki" corner ) :o :cool:

If you really like you can make a page of common corner shapes and if you like i can give you a hand (It is not that difficult just copy and paste the whole page, remove the uncommen shapes, and that is it)
I think the biggest problem is deciding what is common and not and maybe finding pages that you want to link your new page )
success :clap:


So where do you stop listing? There are literally thousands of "corner shapes", e.g:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . O . X . . . .
$$ | O . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]


List or not?

Or:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X X X O .
$$ | . . O X O O . O
$$ | . X X O . . . .
$$ | . X O . O . . .
$$ | . X O . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .[/go]


List or not?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: status
Post #29 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:52 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 350
Location: London UK
Liked others: 19
Was liked: 19
Rank: EGF 12kyu
DGS: willemien
I would not list any of them

But that is mostly because in the first example White is dead and better abandoned (as far as i can see)

The second I would not list it because there is already a white stone inside Blacks area.

Also Black is alive (with territory)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +----------------
$$ | 8 4 6 . . 7. . .
$$ | 5 1 2 X X X O .
$$ | 0 3 O X O O . O
$$ | . X X O . . . .
$$ | . X O . O . . .
$$ | 9 X O . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .[/go]


But if you really want I won't stop you.

But if you have really add a lot of them i would make a seperate page of "Other open formations "

_________________
Promotor and Librarian of Sensei's Library

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: status
Post #30 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:03 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5539
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1103
Was liked: 1456
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
As promised, I looked at my copy of 'Go Proverbs Illustrated'. :study: The part on five stone in a row on the third line in a corner is, alas, only one page.

It has two diagrams:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$+-------------------
$$|. 4 . . . . . . .
$$|. . . 2 1 3 . . .
$$|O O O O O X . . .
$$|X X X X X X . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . .[/go]


..and:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$+-------------------
$$|. . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . 2 1 3 . . .
$$|. O O O O O X . . .
$$|4 X X X X X X . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . .[/go]


And it has a few small paragraphs explaining how they live.

It does not discuss the possibility of the attacker starting with the 1-2 point.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207


This post by Joaz Banbeck was liked by: willemien
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: status
Post #31 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:07 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2011
Location: Groningen, NL
Liked others: 202
Was liked: 1087
Rank: Dutch 4D
GD Posts: 645
Universal go server handle: herminator
willemien wrote:
I would not list any of them

But that is mostly because in the first example White is dead and better abandoned (as far as i can see)

The second I would not list it because there is already a white stone inside Blacks area.

Also Black is alive (with territory)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +----------------
$$ | 8 4 6 . . 7. . .
$$ | 5 1 2 X X X O .
$$ | 0 3 O X O O . O
$$ | . X X O . . . .
$$ | . X O . O . . .
$$ | 9 X O . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .[/go]


But if you really want I won't stop you.

But if you have really add a lot of them i would make a seperate page of "Other open formations "


My point wasn't about these specific formations, my point was that you have to draw the line somewhere.

Again, there are literally thousands of corner shapes. Closed formations, open formations, formations with and without defects (such as cutting points), with and without outside liberties, with and without hane/descent on the outside/inside. The only reasonable criterion for inclusion, IMO, is whether it is a common shape. Whether it is useful for player to know their status.

It is useful for players to know that the L-shape is dead, that the hovercraft shape can be attacked with a descent, that the choice between the J-group and the straight J-group exists, and leads to ko, and that hanes on the first line matter to many corner shapes. Because they will encounter them in games regularly.

It is not useful for player to know the status of the staircase ten, because they will not encounter it in games. The staircase ten is interesting as a reading exercise, as a tsumego. But it provides no benefit to learn its status anymore than learning that of the above two examples does (both of which are existing tsumego).


This post by HermanHiddema was liked by 2 people: Joaz Banbeck, xed_over
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: status
Post #32 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:14 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 350
Location: London UK
Liked others: 19
Was liked: 19
Rank: EGF 12kyu
DGS: willemien
Quote:
It is not useful for player to know the status of the staircase ten, because they will not encounter it in games. The staircase ten is interesting as a reading exercise, as a tsumego. But it provides no benefit to learn its status anymore than learning that of the above two examples does (both of which are existing tsumego).


I guess you will find it unbelievable but I did encounter this shape in actual play.

_________________
Promotor and Librarian of Sensei's Library


This post by willemien was liked by: tapir
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: status
Post #33 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:29 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2011
Location: Groningen, NL
Liked others: 202
Was liked: 1087
Rank: Dutch 4D
GD Posts: 645
Universal go server handle: herminator
willemien wrote:
Quote:
It is not useful for player to know the status of the staircase ten, because they will not encounter it in games. The staircase ten is interesting as a reading exercise, as a tsumego. But it provides no benefit to learn its status anymore than learning that of the above two examples does (both of which are existing tsumego).


I guess you will find it unbelievable but I did encounter this shape in actual play.


I do not find it unbelievable, it is certainly possible for such a shape to happen. And the same is true for the thousand other shapes I mentioned. With the millions of games being played each day at all sorts of playing levels, the most unlikely groups will appear on the board.

But it isn't common. It is not the result of known joseki or invasion. There is no point in learning by heart the status of this shape, or any of the other thousand, because it is exceedingly unlikely that you will need that knowledge.

Again, the question remains: Why include this unlikely but possible shape, and not the other thousands of shapes that are equally unlikely, but equally possible?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: status
Post #34 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:53 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 350
Location: London UK
Liked others: 19
Was liked: 19
Rank: EGF 12kyu
DGS: willemien
HermanHiddema wrote:
Again, the question remains: Why include this unlikely but possible shape, and not the other thousands of shapes that are equally unlikely, but equally possible?


:grumpy: I am not convinced of those 1000 of shapes. :grumpy:

Please show me some (say 10) of those shapes so that:

1. Black is completely surrounding an area in the corner.
2. The black formation has no cutting points
3. The status does change if a black stone is removed (this is just to prevent superfluous stones)

4. The area that black surrounds does not contain white stones
5. The area contains more than 3 empty points (preferably more than 7)

6. The status of the group depends on who's turn it is. (for this living in seki differs from living with territory)
7. The shape is not on the CornerShapes page

Deal?

_________________
Promotor and Librarian of Sensei's Library

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: status
Post #35 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:37 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1206
Liked others: 51
Was liked: 192
Rank: KGS 5d
KGS: Str1fe, Midorisuke
HermanHiddema wrote:
But it isn't common. It is not the result of known joseki or invasion. There is no point in learning by heart the status of this shape, or any of the other thousand, because it is exceedingly unlikely that you will need that knowledge.

Again, the question remains: Why include this unlikely but possible shape?


I shaved the question down. What is the point of including such an unlikely shape? I have never seen it in any of my games (nor, i believe, any games that I have observed). It is interesting as a tsumego, but not as a standard corner shape, like most of the rest of the shapes on the Sensei's page.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: status
Post #36 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:54 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 614
Liked others: 28
Was liked: 65
Rank: 1 Kyu KGS
KGS: Numsgil
willemien wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:
Again, the question remains: Why include this unlikely but possible shape, and not the other thousands of shapes that are equally unlikely, but equally possible?


:grumpy: I am not convinced of those 1000 of shapes. :grumpy:

Please show me some (say 10) of those shapes so that:

1. Black is completely surrounding an area in the corner.
2. The black formation has no cutting points
3. The status does change if a black stone is removed (this is just to prevent superfluous stones)

4. The area that black surrounds does not contain white stones
5. The area contains more than 3 empty points (preferably more than 7)

6. The status of the group depends on who's turn it is. (for this living in seki differs from living with territory)
7. The shape is not on the CornerShapes page

Deal?


Actually, black groups in the corner with no external liberties are almost always (quite often? More than occassionally) in danger of a seki invasion to rob points late in the end game. If it's just a single large eye shape, and the eye shape isn't a killing shape, and the number of empty intersections of the eye shape is below some surprisingly large number (I'm going to arbitrarily guess and say 13), the chance of an invasion living in seki is very real. The more blobby the eye shape the greater the chance. The lack of external liberties means all sorts of shortage of liberty tesujis can work, and since it's in the corner you run in to some interesting seki shapes that involve false eyes even.

It almost never turns up in DDK play because the players aren't strong enough to see it. In SDK play players tend to place moves inside the eye shape because they're aware of the danger.

_________________
1k KGS

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: status
Post #37 Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:58 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 350
Location: London UK
Liked others: 19
Was liked: 19
Rank: EGF 12kyu
DGS: willemien
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
As promised, I looked at my copy of 'Go Proverbs Illustrated'. :study: The part on five stone in a row on the third line in a corner is, alas, only one page.

It has two diagrams:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$+-------------------
$$|. 4 . . . . . . .
$$|. . . 2 1 3 . . .
$$|O O O O O X . . .
$$|X X X X X X . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . .[/go]


..and:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$+-------------------
$$|. . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . 2 1 3 . . .
$$|. O O O O O X . . .
$$|4 X X X X X X . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . .[/go]


And it has a few small paragraphs explaining how they live.

It does not discuss the possibility of the attacker starting with the 1-2 point.


Thanks I added your first diagram to

Five stones on the third line in the corner

Will try to make it a nice page later (but feel free to add to the page yourself if you wish)

_________________
Promotor and Librarian of Sensei's Library

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: status
Post #38 Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:14 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 350
Location: London UK
Liked others: 19
Was liked: 19
Rank: EGF 12kyu
DGS: willemien
Numsgil wrote:
willemien wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:
Again, the question remains: Why include this unlikely but possible shape, and not the other thousands of shapes that are equally unlikely, but equally possible?


:grumpy: I am not convinced of those 1000 of shapes. :grumpy:

Please show me some (say 10) of those shapes so that:

1. Black is completely surrounding an area in the corner.
2. The black formation has no cutting points
3. The status does change if a black stone is removed (this is just to prevent superfluous stones)

4. The area that black surrounds does not contain white stones
5. The area contains more than 3 empty points (preferably more than 7)

6. The status of the group depends on who's turn it is. (for this living in seki differs from living with territory)
7. The shape is not on the CornerShapes page

Deal?


Actually, black groups in the corner with no external liberties are almost always (quite often? More than occassionally) in danger of a seki invasion to rob points late in the end game. If it's just a single large eye shape, and the eye shape isn't a killing shape, and the number of empty intersections of the eye shape is below some surprisingly large number (I'm going to arbitrarily guess and say 13), the chance of an invasion living in seki is very real. The more blobby the eye shape the greater the chance. The lack of external liberties means all sorts of shortage of liberty tesujis can work, and since it's in the corner you run in to some interesting seki shapes that involve false eyes even.

It almost never turns up in DDK play because the players aren't strong enough to see it. In SDK play players tend to place moves inside the eye shape because they're aware of the danger.


This is just handwaving. Give an example.(say with 12 or more empty points)

Ps it is about black not able to live or only life in seki, It is not the question of white can live inside black terretory, so answers like 10x10CornerGame1, are no good because even if white lives black lives(with territory) as well.

I did make a page CommonCornerShapes what was the same page as CornerShapes only some uncommen shapes are removed. (feel free to edit)

_________________
Promotor and Librarian of Sensei's Library

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: status
Post #39 Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:45 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2011
Location: Groningen, NL
Liked others: 202
Was liked: 1087
Rank: Dutch 4D
GD Posts: 645
Universal go server handle: herminator
willemien wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:
Again, the question remains: Why include this unlikely but possible shape, and not the other thousands of shapes that are equally unlikely, but equally possible?


2. The black formation has no cutting points



So you feel that the tripod groups, J groups, weak carpenters square, comb formation, hovercraft and walkie-talkie eight should not be on the corner shapes page then? :shock:

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: status
Post #40 Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:31 am 
Lives with ko
User avatar

Posts: 193
Location: Trondheim, Norway
Liked others: 76
Was liked: 29
Rank: 2d EGF and KGS
GD Posts: 1005
Universal go server handle: sverre
HermanHiddema wrote:
So you feel that the tripod groups, J groups, weak carpenters square, comb formation, hovercraft and walkie-talkie eight should not be on the corner shapes page then? :shock:


Perhaps it would be helpful to have a separate "closed corner shapes" page for this sort of information. After all, the enclosed shapes in the middle and sides are very well known to most players, but a similar shape in the corner can have very different characteristics.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group