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 Post subject: Re: connectedness and cutting over influence
Post #21 Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:32 am 
Oza
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CXUD wrote:
... I have trouble with capture situations so I always tanuki to try to grab more territory but I can see how it would be relevant even when base building (half completed bases need to stay connected in case they lose eye space). I just wish I thought in terms of capture but keeping track of all of that would drive me crazy, I'd much rather just tanuki during a fight to try to grab territory. Playing even a single extra stone in an unpopulated part of the board where you already have one other stone can get so many more points than a small capture battle loss.


When you say that you "never capture," I hope you don't mean that literally! If you surrender every time your opponent starts a fight, and play on a different part of the board, eventually he'll be able to wipe all of your stones off the board. Can you post a game of yours to show us what you mean?

You are pointing to something smart, though, when you say that a single extra stone in an empty part of the board is worth way more points than just capturing a few stones. The problem, though, is that sometimes capturing a few stones isn't just capturing a few stones! Here's an example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X X X X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O a O O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O X X X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X b X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | O O O O O O O O . . . . O . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . . . O X O . . . . . O O O O O . |
$$ | X X X X X O X O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | X O O O O O X O O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X c X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


On the top, if it's Black's turn he can play at "a" to save his three stones; if it's White's turn he can play at "a" to capture them. That's worth 6 points (6 points "in gote"; that means that after one player saves/captures the stones, the other player can get points by playing somewhere else.) You're right that this is a tiny play. You can leave this until the end of the game, when there are no more open spaces to claim (unless suddenly the white stones get surrounded and they need space for eyes).

On the right side, if it's Black's turn he can play at "b" to save his three stones; White can capture them. But here you're not "just" capturing or saving three stones. White's stones have surrounded 18 points of territory here. If W captures on the right, he gets 21 points for this area; if Black saves his stones, he ruins W's territory as well.

On the bottom, if it's Black's turn he can play at "c" to save his three stones; White can capture them. Again, though, W isn't just capturing three stones; if he captures these three stones, Black's group is dead. The 3 stones are worth 6 points, but the group is worth 45 points.

Some more examples:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X O O X X X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O O X a O O O O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . c , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . d . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . e . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O O O X b O O O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X X O O X X X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


On the top Black can capture two stones at "a", and on the bottom he can capture two stones at "b". White can save. But the positions are completely different. On the bottom, the white wall is impenetrable: the capture is worth 4 points (in gote). On the top, the endangered white stones are all that separates black's live group from pouring into the potential territory that white has built up with his wall. (In fact, White shouldn't even try to save these stones: he should atari at "c" and then, if Black captures, seal that stone into the corner. This prevents Black from separating white's groups by playing "c" himself -- a move which is worth far more than 4 points, even if these cutting stones eventually die.)

Do you understand why a move like "a" is worth far, far more than a move on a more empty part of the board, like "d" or "e"?


This post by jts was liked by 2 people: Akura, Bill Spight
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 Post subject: Re: connectedness and cutting over influence
Post #22 Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:11 pm 
Dies in gote

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jts wrote:
CXUD wrote:
... I have trouble with capture situations so I always tanuki to try to grab more territory but I can see how it would be relevant even when base building (half completed bases need to stay connected in case they lose eye space). I just wish I thought in terms of capture but keeping track of all of that would drive me crazy, I'd much rather just tanuki during a fight to try to grab territory. Playing even a single extra stone in an unpopulated part of the board where you already have one other stone can get so many more points than a small capture battle loss.


When you say that you "never capture," I hope you don't mean that literally! If you surrender every time your opponent starts a fight, and play on a different part of the board, eventually he'll be able to wipe all of your stones off the board. Can you post a game of yours to show us what you mean?

You are pointing to something smart, though, when you say that a single extra stone in an empty part of the board is worth way more points than just capturing a few stones. The problem, though, is that sometimes capturing a few stones isn't just capturing a few stones! Here's an example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X X X X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O a O O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O X X X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X b X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | O O O O O O O O . . . . O . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . . . O X O . . . . . O O O O O . |
$$ | X X X X X O X O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | X O O O O O X O O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X c X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


On the top, if it's Black's turn he can play at "a" to save his three stones; if it's White's turn he can play at "a" to capture them. That's worth 6 points (6 points "in gote"; that means that after one player saves/captures the stones, the other player can get points by playing somewhere else.) You're right that this is a tiny play. You can leave this until the end of the game, when there are no more open spaces to claim (unless suddenly the white stones get surrounded and they need space for eyes).

On the right side, if it's Black's turn he can play at "b" to save his three stones; White can capture them. But here you're not "just" capturing or saving three stones. White's stones have surrounded 18 points of territory here. If W captures on the right, he gets 21 points for this area; if Black saves his stones, he ruins W's territory as well.

On the bottom, if it's Black's turn he can play at "c" to save his three stones; White can capture them. Again, though, W isn't just capturing three stones; if he captures these three stones, Black's group is dead. The 3 stones are worth 6 points, but the group is worth 45 points.

Some more examples:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X O O X X X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O O X a O O O O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . c , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . d . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . e . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O O O X b O O O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X X O O X X X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


On the top Black can capture two stones at "a", and on the bottom he can capture two stones at "b". White can save. But the positions are completely different. On the bottom, the white wall is impenetrable: the capture is worth 4 points (in gote). On the top, the endangered white stones are all that separates black's live group from pouring into the potential territory that white has built up with his wall. (In fact, White shouldn't even try to save these stones: he should atari at "c" and then, if Black captures, seal that stone into the corner. This prevents Black from separating white's groups by playing "c" himself -- a move which is worth far more than 4 points, even if these cutting stones eventually die.)

Do you understand why a move like "a" is worth far, far more than a move on a more empty part of the board, like "d" or "e"?

Definitely, the way it was explained to me is to make big moves before little moves but make vital moves before big moves.

I'm going to play a game against the computer either today or tomorrow and post it but I actually think alot of this conversation has already helped me. I think I had gotten so out of capture races because I was so bad at them that I didn't appreciate the effects separating and connecting could have. It had become more of a game of spreading out and trying to swallow up territory as expanding fields of pieces where capture was typically done on a small scale of two or three pieces and typically non vital (although not always). Go almost feels like two games to me, one game is a capture race and the other is influence (not the influence of a hard to capture piece but the individual fields of influence each piece emits in an area). It almost seems like there's two different kinds of influence, the strength they emit during a capture race because they are strong or have eyes, and the strength they emit as a crowded field to block off territory in a way that opponents cant get through or make life within. When I place a stone I'm not thinking about capture I'm thinking about placing another one in a slightly distant position to create a wall that is too tight to invade and at the same time wide enough to absorb the territory I need, that is how I see go, a game of large territory absorbing closing walls. I don't see it as a game of strands trying to capture each other and enlarge/interconnect themselves to avoid capture.

If I were playing a game and a weak group were in danger I would rather spend three stones enclosing off more territory than spend those three stones trying to connect because that would not only make the group live but it would also add to my score.

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 Post subject: Re: connectedness and cutting over influence
Post #23 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:46 am 
Dies in gote

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I think I have it now. This is my game before I got it:

http://eidogo.com/#26eSREw

and this is it afterwards:

http://eidogo.com/#2guwEWF

I still need to get used to taking territory this way but I can definitely see the difference. I was futilely trying to figure out how to not get all my weak stones cut off and keep them all connected rather than not making tons weak stones in the first place.

Thanks for everyone's help.

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