Also lost in the endgame? :)

daal · Post by **daal** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:16 am

Here's a close game that I'd like some comments on. I was white.

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:59 am

@ move 22, B6 shouldn't have worked. Black can just capture the cutting stone without trouble.

tapir · Post by **tapir** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:55 am

Even if you lose in the endgame, likely the bigger mistakes happened earlier. Just 3+2 comments on the run.

1) Capturing on the left side (huge) instead of capping in the center (urgent) is a clear case of urgent before big moves in my humble opinion. You hand the initiative to your opponent here.

2) You commented "I want to go out as fast as possible." but the following moves show you taking gote to make two eyes for your group.

3) Both of you played a dozen of moves in the area even after the center was settled. Those moves are small, endgame, don't play them at this time, when there are huge unsettled areas - with moyos to be build or invaded.

4) E16 is bad. Did you think about the atari from the other side?

5) W198 loses a ko threat, which is big in this situation.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:16 am

Move 18: "Is this bad? It takes away libs, but creates weaknesses."

Sorry, but, yes, it is bad. It does not create weaknesses. The weaknesses are already there. What your move does is clarify the weakness.
The problem with doing this is three-fold:
1) It shorts you on liberties ( which may be needed in some future sequences starting with F2 ) but that is a rather minor issue.
2) It burns a ko threat. ( also a minor issue )
3) The biggest problem is that, like Schroedinger's cat, when one future possibility is made real, all other competing possibilities disappear. In this particular case, you have at least two possible ways of exploiting the weakness. One is to push through as you did, leaving him with two cutting points.
The other possibility is that sometime, as the left side is populated, you might happen to play at B9 or C9. If you haven't yet pushed through at C5, then you have the option of the invasion at B5 with dual threats of connecting northward with B6 or eastward with C5. This invasion not only costs him several points, but it is often done in sente as it threatens to reduce him to one eye.
By playing C5 now, you deprive yourself of this second possibility. Your future play on the left side is going to be just a bit more difficult because of it.

EDIT: BTW, you are in no hurry to play this. It is a 1- or 2-point gote for him. Eventually, as the temperature drops to near two, and the left side is settled, and most life and death situations are resolved, you will find it to your advantage to play it. But that is about 200 moves away.

p2501 · Post by **p2501** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:22 am

Joaz Banbeck wrote:3) The biggest problem is that, like Schroedinger's cat, when one future possibility is made real, all other competing possibilities disappear.

I love how you put that!

I think Catalin Taranu said in one of his videos on euro go tv: "Aji is like wine, you have to wait a while before it tastes best."

PS: Sorry for OT.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:42 am

Move 42: You killed another cat here.
Your Q6/R6 group is heavy, and is under attack from his latest move. Those stones are probably not going to find it easy to live on the right side if they should need to, so they should start running. Something like O5 or O6 should do. While running like that, they are generating the possibility of a future invasion at O3. ( Either connecting northward to the aforementioned O5/O6 or underneath with M2 etc. )
When you compel him to play M4, all of this disappears. O3 is no longer a possibility for you.

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:01 am

Just a quick followup on that aji, with an example. If white later gets a stone on the left nearby, you can play inside:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Aji tastes delicious $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If black cuts off on the left, the group in the corner has to live in gote, and the stones are split:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 classic L+1 group $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 5 1 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 X O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If black cuts from the other side, black only has one eye and can be chased depending on the situation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Black only has 1 eye in the corner! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:17 am

Generally in Emdem's example, the B8 stone is at C8, but it's a great example of the aji, regardless.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:38 am

Some pre-endgame comments.

jts · Post by **jts** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:10 am

Bill, would you say a little bit more about why :w40:

is unnecessary? I think kyu players take it on faith that kicking is a big threat, and the kicked stone ought to extend. Is it that W has a bigger move elsewhere, or that W should treat the stone lightly, or simply that B's follow-up isn't very big?

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:39 am

I'm not Bill, but I think this is a nice exercise. It seems to me that if you compare this to the standard 4-4 point and kick, White loses a lot less by not responding. Because Black's corner was already somewhat strong, White has a smaller followup (normally at the three-three point). Even if you don't respond, Black has a hard time swallowing up the white stone on a large scale.

But that doesn't tell me where else you would play in lieu of standing up.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:28 pm

At move 186: You have a scheme for cashing in on the aji of Q14 to rescue your guys. It's clever. :clap:

But you have to sacrifice your G11 group to do it because when the smoke clears, he gets to play around F12 first.
However, you don't need to do it that way. You have 5 liberties vs 5 liberties, so you can play F11 first, threatening to win a straightforward liberties race. He probably ducks that line by complicating with D12 or something similar. But now you have F11, and then you can play your complications over in the center/right. If you win there - as you did - then you capture everything, for a net profit about 40 points greater than in the game.

daal · Post by **daal** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:50 pm

Thank you all for your comments!

Both Bill and Joaz pointed out nice and easy ways that I could have better handled the center group. Bill showed the crane's nest and Joaz pointed out that counting the liberties would have allowed me to protect one group before saving the other. The interesting thing about these observations is that they are both easily graspable when pointed out, and nonetheless I missed both possibilities during the game and during the self-review. Why? Interesting question for me. I suppose that I didn't think long enough about capturing as per Bill's suggestion, and I was too focused on saving the one group to realize that I could threaten the other first as per Joaz' idea. I guess I also felt frazzled, and because I didn't expect to be able to save both groups, I didn't try hard enough to do so.

As to the other main points mentioned, thanks to all for explaining why w18 was bad. Joaz' Schroedinger's cat analogy along with Emeralddemon's diagrams are brilliant. I won't do that again!!

Another move that I didn't think of that I feel that I should have is the other atari of E16 at move 158 that Tapir suggested. I've seen this type of thing often in Making Good Shape, and again, I wonder why it didn't occur to me. *sigh* As to 198 - it should have been at Q13, right?

As to not responding to the kick at b39 - that's interesting. By standing right away, I made my stones unnecessarily heavy. I had a bad feeling when I did it, because I knew he would pincer my two stones, but nothing else occurred to me. Next time: tenuki!!

Post by **Solomon** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:12 pm

I agree that 40 is bad, but to tenuki is also not good. Instead, I would:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . 3 X 1 . | $$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . . . . X 4 2 . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . O . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:57 pm

jts wrote:Bill, would you say a little bit more about why is unnecessary? I think kyu players take it on faith that kicking is a big threat, and the kicked stone ought to extend. Is it that W has a bigger move elsewhere, or that W should treat the stone lightly, or simply that B's follow-up isn't very big?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm38 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a O . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . O X X O X . . . . . . . . . 3 1 . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . O . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

OC, "a" is still bigger than approaching the bottom right corner. But if you do approach, IMO, "b" is better than :w38:

. After all, Black has a strong corner, and the proverb says not to approach strong stones. It is not like White has an attack on the Black group.

But Black replies passively (yeah, I know) with :b39:

. A pincer is much better. :b39:

turns a dubious play ( :w38:

) into kikashi. With virtually no cost White has created aji on the right side. Even if White sacrifices that stone, it has still made a gain. White should treat it lightly.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Kikashi $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . O X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . O . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Even if White makes the approach I suggest, :w1:

,

is also passive and White can tenuki. The :bc:

stone looks pretty silly now, doesn't it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm38 Don't run! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O X . . . . . . . . . 3 1 . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . O . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As daal points out, :w40:

is heavy. What does it threaten? You know you are going to get a pincer. ("c" is more severe.) So basically all you are doing with :w40:

is running. Jowa says, Don't run. That is, don't just run.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Light play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 2 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . O X X O X . . . . . . . . . 4 W . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . O . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Again, just looking at the right side, given the marked stones, I like :w1:

. If

, then the extension, :w3:

, threatens to stand at 4. If Black prevents that with :b4:

, White still threatens to extend at "a". If Black pincers at "b" instead, White can choose to sacrifice the marked stone or to start a running battle, or even to make a connection.

Life In 19x19

Also lost in the endgame? :)

Also lost in the endgame? :)

Re: Also lost in the endgame? :)

Re: Also lost in the endgame? :)

Re: Also lost in the endgame? :)

Re: Also lost in the endgame? :)

Re: Also lost in the endgame? :)

Re: Also lost in the endgame? :)

Re: Also lost in the endgame? :)

Re: Also lost in the endgame? :)

Re: Also lost in the endgame? :)

Re: Also lost in the endgame? :)

Re: Also lost in the endgame? :)

Re: Also lost in the endgame? :)

Re: Also lost in the endgame? :)

Re: Also lost in the endgame? :)