149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Psychee · Post by **Psychee** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:03 am

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:36 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

He played d16 as expected, and I expect c6 next (other options are pincer or approach q3 instead). Assuming he plays c6 I could then play k4 or l4 to set up the popular Kobayashi opening. However, even though I think the Kobayashi is a good opening I find it rather boring as it is played loads. Instead I plan to play r9 to set up the Chinese opening. In fact I think I probably have a higher chance of beating Magicwand with the Kobayashi (which can keep things a simple territorial game) than r9 (which will likely lead to large scale fighting where Magicwand may surprise me with good moves), but I want to make this game interesting

.

This f3-c6 exchange and then r9 is very popular with pros in the last few years. Usually it's not a good idea to approach and then tenuki, as then your opponent attacks the approach stone. However, there is a reason for doing it in this case. First let's consider the normal Chinese opening (with 2 white 4-4s).

A few months ago I was reading Go World 24 from 1981. It included a commentary by Hashimoto Shoji 9p of his game against Kobayashi Koichi 9p which consisted of him answering questions from readers of a Japanese Go magazine. In that game Hashimoto as black made the Chinese opening and Kobayashi played k3. One reader asked "Why not play as below?". Hashimoto said this is bad for white as black's move at q14 works well with r9; if white doesn't play from the top side he has space to invade and make a two-space extension from a to b, which he loses by approaching.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Hashimoto says bad for white, but played many times! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . 1 . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This rather puzzled me as I have seen this shape in many professional games so I searched GoGoD to investigate. The diagram below shows the next moves for white against the Chinese opening ordered by popularity. The image is the statistics from kombilo, the number underneath the columns is what percentage of games black won.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Next moves against Chinese opening by popularity $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . d . . a . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . g f . . e . . c . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What struck me is that black only wins 45.8% when white approaches at the bottom side at n4, but he wins 55.7% when white approaches at the top. One has to be careful with interpreting win rates from kombilo as evidence a move is good/bad as often there aren't many games (or there could be other biases), but here there are lots of games and an early position so I think this statistics really can teach us something (45.8% wins of 347 games is statistically signficant at 7% level, 55.7% wins of 289 is 5% level). So it seems that Hashimtoto was right all along that approaching at o17 is slightly bad. Something else to notice is if white plays at f3 black only wins 44.6%, but there aren't so many games with this move. However, they do seem to be quite recent.

So I concluded that in the Chinese opening it is the lower side and the potential around the 3-4 stones that is more important that the upper side around the 4-4 stone (well, I already knew this, but it was nice to get some evidence). It is harder for white to settle a group between r9 and the 3-4 than between r9 and the 4-4 as the gap is one line smaller. Something else to note is that white's moves at f and g are a similar idea to the "Anti-Chinese" diagram I posted on my last move.

When white approaches at n4 black can answer at q5, but he only wins 44% of games this way which is pretty rubbish. A more active plan for black is to pincer at k4 or l4. If this happens, it is easy to imagine black liking to have made the exchange of f3 for c6 before making the chinese at r9, because if he does it later white may not answer so docilely at c6. A similar idea would be the below diagram, if black approaches at f3 after white has got a stone at k4 white would kick to attack black and make him cramped, c6 would be soft.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 f3 later $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . O . 6 . 8 . 3 . . 1 . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So, based on all these ideas that it is the lower side which is more important, I play at f3 as a probe first to ask white if he answers with the restrained move at c6, and if so I will make the Chinese and say f3-c6 was a good exchange.

But after tenuki-ing the approach you have to plan for it getting attacked. The plan is something like below: although f3 is weak, so is white's pincer stone, and in the running fight black will develop the bottom right moyo based off his Chinese opening.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm5 Big fight $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 5 . . . 6 . . 7 . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After all that analysis, he's not going to play c6 is he.....

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:00 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 6 , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i usually dont play this pincer...but if i play common knight move C6 i might fall in to a hole i can not get out.
althought below is playable said professionals..i think black is slightly better.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 7 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

since i am playing as white..my move is very limited and all i can do is try to maintain balace.
and black has many many options.
strange enough black and white are equal given 6.5 komi..but options of each players are night and day.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:53 am

Awwww, he prevented me setting up my Chinese opening. Whilst it's obvious how this pincer stops the Kobayashi, the reason it stops me playing r9 is a bit more subtle. Let's say I do play r9, white will obviously follow-up on my tenuki of his pincer, probably as below. The key point is after kicking to make black heavy and prevent him making eyespace (by sliding into the corner at d2) white plays at d6 on the 4th line as he knows there is fighting, and not c6 which is worse for fighting. Whereas if black gets the f3 c6 exchange before r9, then if this fighting happens black is happy as c6 on the 3rd line is less good for fighting.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Chinese, fighting better for white $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 9 . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 8 X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So now, how to respond to this pincer? The easiest response to any 4-4 pincer is to take the corner which gives black territory, and white thickness and sente to approach the lower right.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm7 Take corner $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 O . . . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 2 8 X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 7 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What I used to do in positions like this is read to the end of the joseki (or rather just picture the joseki end position, it's hardly reading) and then use judgement to evaluate the position. However, there's no rule that says you must stop reading after one corner, you can carry on reading to help judge the position! With the approaches the focus is white's potential on the lower side. If white approaches low and black pincers white will probably counter pincer which looks interesting for white, so probably black plays as below to secure his corner stone and reduce white's potential on the lower side (later he can aim at f2). This n3 move is not common as a bit soft, but here I think it is appropriate.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Low approach $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . 2 . . X . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White could also approach high. Similar to above, black could play a solid 3rd line move to reduce white's lower side potential (the Tooveli joseki).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 High approach $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . O , . . . . . , 5 . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . 2 . X 3 . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . 4 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What about attaching under the high approach? This is the best move for territory and indeed the high approach used to be considered usually bad as not good for territory, and only for special situations, though thinking has changed. If white hanes on the outside black is happy to get a big corner and a strong stone at o3 to reduce white's lower side potential.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 High approach, attach, silly white $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . O , . . . . . , 4 . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . 6 . X . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, white is likely to switch to the avalanche to develop the lower side. Something like below will happen and I prefer white. The lower side is not territory yet, f2 is unlikely to die, but white is developing nicely.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 High approach, attach, good white $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . O , . . . 9 . 3 4 . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . 5 X 6 . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Because black is being constrained in his answer to white's approach by the white lower side potential, one idea is to make a shimari as an answer to white's pincer. Here I think white would then attack the approach stone. If black saves his stone the fighting looks better for white (he wants to play a next but the 2 stones are rather weak) and if black doesn't save his stone there's no obvious fuseki point to take instead.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Shimari, fighting better for white $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . O . 9 . . O , a . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 8 X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If black is on the other 3-4 point the position is quite different. One very common opening is as below, the idea of white's pincer is to prevent black making the mini-Chinese. If black takes the corner (in gote) it is good for white as he gets sente to make the excellent approach at p3 which also develops the lower side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm7 Good for white $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 1 2 8 X . O . . . . . . 0 . . . . | $$ | . . 7 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Therefore black makes the shimari in answer to white's pincer. This shimari faces along the right side so q/r10 is an excellent move next. So if white does something to f3 black just plays on the right side. White could also wedge the right side and then black takes the corner. By making the p3 r10 exchange black has prevented, in sente, white from having an excellent move after black takes the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm7 Preventing p3, even game $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 3 4 0 X . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . 9 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So based on the above analysis I think taking the corner is ok, but I'm slightly unhappy to give white sente to approach my bottom right stone as I then feel I need to do slightly slow moves to counter the white lower side potential. So time to look for improvements.

You can always jump out when pincered, which could lead to this joseki or 9 could be a counterpincer at a or b (see http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 479#p86479). But that joseki kinda sucks and the counter-pincer seems to be giving up too much on the left side for dubious return on the right side (if I already have a stone around r9 or q9 it would be better) so I reject this jump.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm5 Bad joseki, no thanks $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 2 , a b . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Next up to consider is double approach which could be high (d6) or low (c6). In fact 2-space double approach at d7 and c7 are also being played by pros these days. One possible outcome is the sequence below. Black gets the corner in sente which means he gets to make the shimari at

. This lower left sequence used to be considered joseki, but these days the exchange of

for

is considered somewhat bad for black as it gives white a to aim at (which aims at b: black can't block at b7 or white pushes through and f5 ends up on the right spot). See An Younggil's recent commentary http://gogameguru.com/go-commentary-yam ... ind-games/. In fact white could play

at a right away which forces black to come out and then induces white defending at the bottom side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm7 Old joseki, but black sente $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . b . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ | . . 7 O . 2 3 . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 5 . 6 X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The newer thinking from the Korean pros is to take the corner immediately. If white fixes at b black gets sente and is happy to have improved on the previous diagram as white can no longer aim at a. White probably tenukis to approach the lower right, and later black can pull out at b which is a pretty huge move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm7 New joseki, but black probably gote $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 O . 2 . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 . 4 X b . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

White has another choice, which is to block this way (this is the reason for the hane in the old joseki, it makes blocking this way bad). In this variation white gets a wall and black the corner. I slightly prefer white here as white's extension from the wall will work well with d16. This variation is for when black doesn't want to lose the f3 stone, but here I am quite happy with the previous variation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm7 New joseki, white makes wall $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . , . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 O . 2 . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 5 , X , . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Another move is the flying elephant jump (Dumbo?) below. It certainly looks cool, and I think it's playable, but I don't feel like this situation is special enough for it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm5 Dumbo $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I did recently use this move at the London Open in the position below. My idea in that game was I wanted to make influence to counter black's centre potential, but this game is less developed so that's not applicable. Another game I used this move is http://www.online-go.com/games/board.php?boardID=212176.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm5 When I like it $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O X X X , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

So I still don't know where to play. Another idea is to approach the top left as a sort of probe which feels pretty cool. Magicwand's pincer is trying to stop me controlling the flow of the game, and this 2nd approach throws it right back in his face

. The basic plan is if white tenukis to play in the lower left I am happy to double approach the top left. If white plays docile f17 then I am happy to make that exchange and will play c6 as c14 helps c6 a bit. If white pincers then I dunno, it's complicated

. It depends if the pincer is high or low but the plan is to choose a variation in the lower left the devalues the left side for white after his pincer says the left side is important. Then later I hop into the corner at c17.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm5 Funky probing approach $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Hmmmm, maybe this is why I spend too long on the opening and then lose games in overtime....

Tooveli · Post by **Tooveli** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:27 am

To Uberdude

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:23 am

below is what i hoped.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

below is what i think is going to happen

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . | $$ | . . 3 O . . . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 2 8 X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 7 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

below is what i would play if i was black..but i dont think it fits my opponent's style.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O , 3 . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

my pincer is not what i first drew in my head.. actually it was a misread of other pincer..

but it is a playable joseki so no harm done... i see my opponent being very careful about his next move. (my move usually takes few second)
what i feel about above three diag..
first two are joseky and played by professionals many many times.
but i feel it favors white. that is why i like third diag that uses the power of your first move effectively.
does anyone else feel like i do?

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:23 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

jts · Post by **jts** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:31 am

@uberdude

crux · Post by **crux** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:39 am

I liked the novel.

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:39 am

Uberdude may read this : )

Uberdude wrote:
P.S did anyone read my novel, should I keep writing that level of detail?

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:53 am

@Uberdude:

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:24 am

Magicwand

Celebrir · Post by **Celebrir** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:11 pm

Uberdude,

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:17 pm

F4. Nothing fancy yet. Same old joseki.

1986 · Post by **1986** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:22 pm

this is the greatest game commentary i ever read in my whole entire life

Life In 19x19

149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand