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Offline TegaiS
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #261 Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:05 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 152
Location: Russia, Krasnoyarsk, (GMT+07:00)
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 17
Universal go server handle: tegais
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X 2 3 . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O 1 6 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w26: :b27: is a trigger. Feel free to reject it.
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Offline andreyl
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #262 Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:09 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 51
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 1
KGS: 2d
Tygem: 6d
@white
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X 2 3 . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O 1 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This?
Its hard for black to save the top stones
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 9 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X 2 3 . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O 1 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 0 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X 2 3 . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O 1 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Perhaps this is safer but black gets nice forcing moves and can continue with a or b
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X 2 3 8 O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O 1 6 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X 7 0 2 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . a . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline andreyl
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #263 Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:14 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 51
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 1
KGS: 2d
Tygem: 6d
white
I didnt count this variation,might be a bit tricky for us
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 1 0 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 2 X 2 3 . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O 1 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #264 Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:51 am 
Oza

Posts: 2495
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Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
andreyl wrote:
white
I didnt count this variation,might be a bit tricky for us
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 1 0 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 2 X 2 3 . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O 1 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:w28: as an extension was my first feeling too but I think the hane solves the problems with this squeeze, since we have miai of E18 and H18 to make things safe.

I think I'm still okay with black playing another move against the left side, as our stone is fairly light. There are lots of escape routes, and if black pressures it too much, we can always reduce from the outside a lot in sente.
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #265 Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:42 am 
Gosei
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KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
white
If black plays J18 would we play E18?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #266 Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:05 pm 
Oza

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emeraldemon wrote:
white
If black plays J18 would we play E18?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't see why not. Black's group is very small and still not entirely alive, and I'd be happy to push black along the second line. White's corner is clearly alive, and black's dragon from the left could also be attacked if it is neglected.
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #267 Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:46 pm 
Gosei
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@white
Alright, let's do the hane.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #268 Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 12:58 am 
Honinbo

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Merry Christmas! :D

Will we see this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 5 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 2 X O X 1 O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #269 Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:32 am 
Oza

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I'm fine with the hane. Are you in andreyl?

We do need to think about whether we need to play a move to live in the corner, though.
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Offline Schachus
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #270 Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:47 am 
Lives with ko

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Rank: KGS 1k EGF 2k
KGS: Schachus12
Bill Spight wrote:
Merry Christmas! :D

Will we see this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 5 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 2 X O X 1 O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I dont think so, it didnt seem to be b's plan(although it looks also good to me). I rather expect

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


as Joaz first showed, and if E18, after b K17, it looks very good for b to me(left side has the influence, plus the j16 stones dont seem so comfortable), otherwise(so f.ex block at K17) if black dets d17 and c18, how does w even survive it? if w gives up the two stones there, this

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm29
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 8 3 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 5 X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


looks a lot worse for w than the line you showed, right?

Am I missing anything, or is black simply better in all the lines? I think w maybe shouldnt hane, but thats just me.

If I am correct in assessing that b is doing well, where did w go wrong? Should w cut the other way, or do you think maybe 3-3 was already questionable, Bill?
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Offline andreyl
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #271 Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:48 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 51
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@white
Hane is fine
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #272 Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:52 am 
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Merry Christmas :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X 2 3 8 O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O 1 6 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #273 Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:07 pm 
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This one?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O B X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #274 Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:27 pm 
Judan
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Kirby wrote:
This one?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O B X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We could play that. They have to give us the two stones, of course. But trying to live underneath is an option too. This may require some serious thinking.

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #275 Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:53 pm 
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Still haven't been studying Go much, lately, but taking the two stones on top seems simple and pretty good.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . C C C C C . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . C C C C C . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O B C C . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X O B O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


We have great thickness and also sente. We could attack the left white stone, for example. It cost us the points that white gains on the top. Maybe 16 points or so (marked - white has the corner points whether or not we live on top).

Alternatively, if we live on top, let's say it goes like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 1 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 6 O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Actually, it might not be bad, but it's less clear to me about the result.

White might seal us in:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 1 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X . . 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 6 O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Although, I admit it might not be that bad for us, given white has a weakness around 'a'.

So I suppose...

Taking Two Stones
Pros: Thick, Sente, Simple variation that seems good
Cons: Give white 15~20 points

Living on top
Pros: Don't give white 15 points; Still somewhat strong on the left; White's stones have aji.
Cons: Not as thick as taking two stones; white has room for more variation; if we're sealed in, white can have a better position against our top right star stone.


@black:
I currently still lean toward taking two stones. Though, living on top seems playable.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #276 Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:16 pm 
Judan
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@BLACK:
Kirby wrote:
...
White might seal us in:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 1 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X . . 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 6 O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I don't think that we can play 27 that low:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 1 9 7 0 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 6 O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


I think that we are safer like this:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 6 O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Kirby wrote:
...
...Taking Two Stones
Pros: Thick, Sente, ...


Sente may be the deciding issue here.

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #277 Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:40 pm 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
I don't think that we can play 27 that low:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 1 9 7 0 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 6 O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 X O O X O . b . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


There's also aji around 'a' and 'b'.

Anyway, I think getting sealed in like this hurts the top right star-point stone, so I still think taking two stones is better.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #278 Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:23 pm 
Judan
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@black:
Kirby wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
I don't think that we can play 27 that low:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 1 9 7 0 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 6 O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 X O O X O . b . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


There's also aji around 'a' and 'b'.

Anyway, I think getting sealed in like this hurts the top right star-point stone, so I still think taking two stones is better.


All that we know for sure is that playing 27 at J18 is a bad idea. But it does not therefore follow that we must take the two stones.
We can play 27 at J17.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 6 O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #279 Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:07 pm 
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@black

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

All that we know for sure is that playing 27 at J18 is a bad idea.


I don't follow your logic. I like 27@J18 better than at J17. If white plays as you suggested, we live (as I showed), and white has terrible shape.

"It does not therefore follow" that J18 is a bad idea. Sorry if it sounds snarky, but that's the gist I got from your reply.

Anyway, capturing two stones in sente still seems like a good idea.

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Offline TegaiS
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #280 Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:37 am 
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@black:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 X O O X O . b . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


On this variation:
1) White will have better shape if play K18 immediatly without wJ17 bH18 exchange.
2) @Kirby. Why :b33: at D18 and not at C18?
3) In this variation we threaten to kill the White's corner so it will be sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X 1 3 5 . 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O 4 6 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


1) In this variation we end in gote but I think that the difference with taking two stones is not 16 point but more than 30.
2) If White play :w2: it is better to have our stone at J18 not at J17.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Playing :w2: from the other side probably doesn't work at all.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . X X . 5 3 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X 1 2 . 6 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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