For Jordus' suggestion:
What if white hanes?

For lesenv's suggestion:
How do we handle the situation if white invades our extension?

Is it all right with you guys if I ask certain hypothetical questions to make the team provide some variations? You are, as far as I am concerned, allowed to do the same.

which hane?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm15 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . . . . . . b 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm15 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . . . . . . 2 1 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 7 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . a . 6 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

if white choses to protect the cutting point at a we can use that as an advantage to play b and create a wall of our own...

I wouldn't have any problem with it, but it's probably not my decision to make.

Look at both hanes, and remember to also read out this

I'm really bad at invasions. i never know where to play. so answering your question is difficult for me. where would white invade?

Let me try:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm15 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . 3 2 . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . 4 . 1 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm15 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . 5 . . . 8 . 9 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X 4 6 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 7 X . . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

yeah, something like this.

I would be really glad if i was wrong so you could point out where i am wrong and how to do it better. if i'm right, well, that's ok, too

I think we will be fine with a crosscut if they hane.. but we could always extend...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm15 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . . . . . . 3 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

or
can extend with (a) also

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm15 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is a little thin, but we should be able to deal with an invasion due to the tengen stone.

D11 is a good idea, but is also aji keshi, as we may later decide we want to play C11 instead. However, we should remember that we can activate that aji before dealing with that area (much later, as it is not interesting right now).

Q16 is locally not very good. I wanted you guys to look at something like this. We're cut, and white is going to get a huge corner while we deal with our cutting stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm15 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I didn't put much reading into the counterhane after white R16, but my instincts say it doesn't end well.

I wanted to play this so badly:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm15 Aiming at with a,b miai
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . C . a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . 1 . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

They played a wider extension which means more aji later, but my candidate doesn't work anymore and I'm not sure when/how to try something at the top.

The three basic choices we have:
1) Pressure the top 3 stones immediately. Those 4 spaces are extremely wide and we should definitely consider jumping in right now.
2) Protect our upper right corner. It is probably honte but looks awfully slow, especially because we probably want to protect at the 33.
3) tenuki and approach one of the corners on the lower side. Even this isn't as simple as it seems because we have at least 2-3 valid approaches and I think we could consider a far approach as well.


Need to read!

I don't like approaching one of the bottom corners now. Firstly, I don't think they're as big as the upper right (the rule of thumb is that the second move in an asymmetric corner is much bigger than that in a symmetric one), and secondly, there are two of them so they're roughly miai anyway. (OK, we might have been able to get both approaches in if black chooses something nice and passive like a 6-4 or 6-3 extension, but given the way black has played so far I can't believe they'd do that - they'd either pincer or tenuki )

My first instinct then is to play the upper right. (Although even then there's the question of where...) You're right that their extension looks wider than it "ought to be", but jumping into such an extension right away has always looked like greedy go to me - can't we take big points elsewhere and let them worry about the aji later? (Invading now would also give them a weak group to attack, which is basically what their setup is designed to do.) But you're right that it does need reading - not that I'm at all good with reading when the sequence isn't virtually forced (which this won't be anything like). Also that we might be able to play some wide extension of our own on top that pressures their group and forces a defensive move. So no hint of a nomination from me yet, either, just a few thoughts for now

Currently looking at:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm15 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . O , X a b . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Current schedule: Read the upper left and decide if we can profit from attacking the group now. If not tenuki. Read the upper right and decide if white get's an awesome position if we tenuki. If not, Approach at e or f.

I have no issue with you asking hypothetical questions to coerce variations. I think it's important for the captains to know how the soldiers are thinking, and what variations they've considered.

I'm going to pick R6. I'm not too sure what we can get when we invade the upper left right now so I'm just going to put that decision off. Black has to spend at least one, rather two, more moves to make any of that into territory so it's not too urgent. We still have a lot of aji up there and I want to wait until the situation is a bit clearer.

So why don't we protect the upper right corner then? In my opinion it is just too slow. The only reasonable enclosure we have is the 33 point which isn't even the ideal enclosure for a 45 point. What's even worse is that there is a big, fat black stone sitting right in our direction of play Since we missed our chance to pincer the black group, that also means we missed our chance to take the top left corner. I say: let black invade! Let him have the corner! We are going to have influence facing the right side so we need stones there to use it.
The real question is which approach to use. I quickly dismissed the two wishy-washy move and am left with the R6 approach and the two space high approach.

The R6 Approach
The pros of this move are abundant. This is the approach my team members are most familiar with. It is also threatening to slide/jump into the corner and destroy blacks territory. It is also the severest approach in that a double approach is very painful. And if black plays passively we get exactly what (I?) want.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm15 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The thing that worries me are pincers. I had previously declared that black has an advantage in any running fight because of the tengen and that pincering would be a nice tactic I still believe that, but I'm not too afraid.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm16 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This joseki allows white to build a wall towards tengen while sealing blacks group in. It's probably not optimal because we don’t have a lot of territory, but the corner is still open and I'm comfortable with influence based games anyway.


Questions to my Teammates:
1) Would you go with a two space high instead in fear of a pincer?
2) What is your assessment of the black group on the upper side?

I just realised I haven't actually got round to a suggestion yet. And as my time on the forum is about to go down considerably from tomorrow, now seems a good time...

So, my suggestions is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm16 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Firstly, I agree with Mnemonic that there's no point rushing into black's 4-space extension; I'd prefer to just leave it there to worry them later, and hopefully build up some strength near it. However, I disagree with him as to where the biggest move on the board is. For all the reasons I gave when first discussing the possibilities here, I still prefer playing in the upper right.

That still leaves the choice of where. Mnemonic's suggestion of the 3-3 is not bad, and might be better than this - while it does feel a little inconsistent with playing 5-4, it would at least be secure territory, while still keeping plenty of access to the centre (which seems to be the general plan for us here, if I'm interpreting Marcus' comments correctly - at any rate, I think that's a good plan even if it's not what the captain wants ). However, the normal 3-4 does all this just as well, while also having a bit more influence to hopefully aid in a later attack. Mnemonic said he was worried about black playing at R13, but having taken another look, I'm sure we can pincer this with relative impunity. OK, we have an open skirt which black might be able to dive into and live, but he won't get that much territory there and we'll build up quite a bit of thickness to nullify what black's aiming for (and to aid with a later invasion of the top). I'm not sure if this is better or worse than just playing at the 3-3, but it seems more fun

Of course, if black doesn't approach straight away, we can always play in that area ourselves and have an enormous corner