Life In 19x19 :: Lessons on counting are gone! Help!

Hi!

This one: http://stevefawthrop.goplayer.info/
And here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?SteveFawthrop%2FCounting

People say that if you send something to the internet it will be there forever, but now I find out that that rule doesn't apply to the most valuable thing you can find there. : <

I've just added archive.org links to the SL article

Any other good resources that cover counting? Books?

@jts: I'm afraid those are copyrighted. :sad:

@jts: I'm afraid those are copyrighted. :sad:

Please feel free to tell others about these lessons but do not copy or edit them and be sure to give credit. I am not posting them directly to SL because I want to reserve the copyright to them in case I ever decide to do anything with them.

HermanHiddema wrote:

@jts: I'm afraid those are copyrighted. :sad:

What makes you say that? I see no indication that Mr. Fawthrop ever intended to do anything but share the lessons freely.

happysocks wrote:

Any other good resources that cover counting? Books?

Position Judgement by Cho Chikun.

I mainly learned from my teacher. Figure out the normal endgame sequences you can expect to be worst case for you and count in pairs for empty territory and count each captured stone in your territory as a pair of points. As you get more practice, you can do it fairly quickly and make good estimates throughout the game.

I mainly learned from my teacher. Figure out the normal endgame sequences you can expect to be worst case for you

Dr. Straw ...did not have any direct response to being told that I had posted them on L19...

...
As for the principle of the thing - maybe this is a case of qui tacet...

Author:	Yuji [ Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:00 am ]
Post subject:	Lessons on counting are gone! Help!
[admin] Due to copyright issues, this thread does not have the expected data. Please see viewtopic.php?p=144846#p144846 JB, 8/6/2013 [/admin] Hi! This one: http://stevefawthrop.goplayer.info/ And here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?SteveFawthrop%2FCounting People say that if you send something to the internet it will be there forever, but now I find out that that rule doesn't apply to the most valuable thing you can find there. : < I'm counting Territory all the time, but still, I want to see those lessons very badly. Does anybody have these lessons to share it here? : )

Author:	PaperTiger [ Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lessons on counting are gone! Help!
Yuji wrote: Hi! This one: http://stevefawthrop.goplayer.info/ And here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?SteveFawthrop%2FCounting People say that if you send something to the internet it will be there forever, but now I find out that that rule doesn't apply to the most valuable thing you can find there. : < archive.org attempts to record the history of the Internet. Go there and put the link that you're looking for. I checked for the first SGF file on the Sensei's page, and it's there: http://web.archive.org/web/201001022204 ... sson_1.sgf The other ones are probably there too.

Author:	Li Kao [ Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lessons on counting are gone! Help!
I've just added archive.org links to the SL article

Author:	Clossius [ Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Lessons on counting are gone! Help!
It's not as good as the other counting lessons that were lost, but I have tried to teach how to count in the middle game on my channel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ9-lho-5zQ Counting lesson #1 hope this helps.

Author:	happysocks [ Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lessons on counting are gone! Help!
Li Kao wrote: I've just added archive.org links to the SL article Thanks, they look interesting (am assuming its possible to use them with out the diagrams). Any other good resources that cover counting? Books?

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

Lessons on counting are gone! Help! http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8529	Page 1 of 2

Author:	jts [ Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lessons on counting are gone! Help!
For extra redundancy I'm going to paste the text in here... [admin] Copyrighted material removed. -JB [/admin]

Author:	jts [ Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lessons on counting are gone! Help!
And the last two. [admin] Copyrighted material removed. -JB [/admin]

Author:	HermanHiddema [ Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lessons on counting are gone! Help!
@jts: I'm afraid those are copyrighted.

Author:	oren [ Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lessons on counting are gone! Help!
happysocks wrote: Any other good resources that cover counting? Books? Position Judgement by Cho Chikun. I mainly learned from my teacher. Figure out the normal endgame sequences you can expect to be worst case for you and count in pairs for empty territory and count each captured stone in your territory as a pair of points. As you get more practice, you can do it fairly quickly and make good estimates throughout the game.

Author:	daal [ Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lessons on counting are gone! Help!
HermanHiddema wrote: @jts: I'm afraid those are copyrighted. What makes you say that? I see no indication that Mr. Fawthrop ever intended to do anything but share the lessons freely.

Author:	jts [ Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lessons on counting are gone! Help!
HermanHiddema wrote: @jts: I'm afraid those are copyrighted. Fawthrop wrote explicitly that he wanted people to spread them (crediting him) but that he wanted to avoid posting them on SL because by posting them on SL he would lose the copyright, and SL uses the Open Content License. I don't believe his intention was to limit access to them if his personal website went down. He was apparently hoping to expand them into something more impressive, and never got around to it. Anyway, I've left a note for him on KGS, asking permission, and if he objects I'll delete my posts.

Author:	John Fairbairn [ Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lessons on counting are gone! Help!
I too recall Steve making a statement along the lines Hermann mentions. My memory of the reason is very slightly different, but even if that is the case I think it's worth making (again) an important point about copyright even when access is freely given. There are times when an author wants to amend, correct, shorten, extend, improve, or update his text while leaving it online, or he may even want to take it down for various reasons. This becomes close to impossisble if copies are sprayed around without a by your leave. For the record, I don't want any of my stuff cross posted, and I have had several occasions to tick people off on SL for doing this. A link to the source is fine.

Author:	tchan001 [ Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lessons on counting are gone! Help!
jts, as a mod of L19, I'd like to ask you to remove the copyrighted text from your posts until you have received permission from the author. IMHO, if you would like to make them redundant, L19 is not the right place for such without permission from the author. Please note the following quote from the SL page: Quote: Please feel free to tell others about these lessons but do not copy or edit them and be sure to give credit. I am not posting them directly to SL because I want to reserve the copyright to them in case I ever decide to do anything with them. However, when he used to be a more active member of L19, there were requests to do translations of them in Vietnamese and French for which he had given permission. But unfortunately, we have no idea where those translated versions are. viewtopic.php?p=20749#p20749

Author:	HermanHiddema [ Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Lessons on counting are gone! Help!
daal wrote: HermanHiddema wrote: @jts: I'm afraid those are copyrighted. What makes you say that? I see no indication that Mr. Fawthrop ever intended to do anything but share the lessons freely. See Steve's statement at SL, as quoted by tchan001. Steve Fawthrop specifically says "do not copy".

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Author:	RobertJasiek [ Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Lessons on counting are gone! Help!
Concerning Steve's counting lessons, see my objections about the contents here: viewtopic.php?p=132562#p132562

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Lessons on counting are gone! Help!
[admin] On Sensei's Library, Steve Fawthrop wrote: Please feel free to tell others about these lessons but do not copy or edit them and be sure to give credit. I am not posting them directly to SL because I want to reserve the copyright to them in case I ever decide to do anything with them. Mr Fawthrop seems rather clear here that he does not want unauthorized copies made. So, despite JTS's apparent good intentions, they have got to go. ( For those who are worried about permanent loss, there are backup copies in the back rooms of L19. ) Should JTS or anyone else get Mr. Fawthrop's permission, or should Jordus overrule me, then they will be restored. Other than that, they are permanently off L19. I ask that all posters respect this policy. [/admin]

Author:	happysocks [ Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lessons on counting are gone! Help!
oren wrote: happysocks wrote: Any other good resources that cover counting? Books? Position Judgement by Cho Chikun. I mainly learned from my teacher. Figure out the normal endgame sequences you can expect to be worst case for you and count in pairs for empty territory and count each captured stone in your territory as a pair of points. As you get more practice, you can do it fairly quickly and make good estimates throughout the game. Thanks! Hope so. From the reviews I'd be pretty interested to read that book even if much of it may be over my head (there's an interesting discussion around the book at SL that someone around my level started). You are probably right, mostly just need more experience counting/estimating.

Author:	jts [ Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lessons on counting are gone! Help!
Dr. Straw has replied and has assured me he plans to put them up on a new website "later this summer". He did not have any direct response to being told that I had posted them on L19, but in any event he plans to make changes so the Internet Archive version may soon be outmoded. As for the principle of the thing - maybe this is a case of qui tacet, but since it doesn't matter, and KGS messages are hardly an infallible form of communication, I'm hoping he'll have a more explicit policy when the new website appears.

Author:	Splatted [ Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lessons on counting are gone! Help!
oren wrote: I mainly learned from my teacher. Figure out the normal endgame sequences you can expect to be worst case for you Sorry for jumping on an old post, but could you try explaining why you count like this? I used to do the same but decided it skewed the results too much to be of any real use.

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lessons on counting are gone! Help!
jts wrote: Dr. Straw ...did not have any direct response to being told that I had posted them on L19... Did he know that an admin had removed them? What does he believe is their current state? jts wrote: ... As for the principle of the thing - maybe this is a case of qui tacet... I'm tentatively inclined to agree.