Was my ploy good or bad?

VincentCB · #1

Hello everyone,
I'd like to have your opinion on something that happened recently in a game of mine.

In the early opening, my opponent gave me good profit while building positions towards the middle. Then, he played the interesting shoulder hit below :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Diagram 1 - Initial position $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I had trouble finding a good answer to this move. I guess the usual idea would be something like the below diagram, stubbornly grabbing profit and banking the game on whatever happens in the middle of the board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Diagram 2 - The usual idea $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O 2 4 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . 1 3 5 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I have trouble judging this result. Do you think this is playable for white? Too good for black? Black's "moyo" is gigantic but quite loose, so white shouldn't have too much trouble making an invasion / reduction. However, I felt uneasy about letting black develop on such a large scale. Therefore, I decided to try "something" :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Diagram 3 - My ploy $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This move induces a sacrifice of the marked stone, building a position on the outside in the process. Here is the continuation from the actual game :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Diagram 4.1 - Actual game $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 3 1 4 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 7 9 0 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 8 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Diagram 4.2 - Actual game $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a , X X O 1 2 , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Everything went exactly as planned. White succeeds in building a group towards the outside. IMO, black's profit is not unduly large; white still has moves in the corner, like 'a' above.
What do you think of this ploy? Ridiculous nonsense? Horrible blunder? Playable strategy? How do you think white should play instead?

As an aside :

Regardless of the validity (or not) of my strategy, I wonder if my attachment was on the correct side... Black could have resisted like this :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Diagram 5 - Black resists $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 4 1 3 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 5 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black can cut and start a fight, supported by his influence on the lower side. If I attach on the other side instead and black tries the same kind of resistance :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Diagram 6 - The other attachment $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . 1 2 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here black cannot cut, and if he pushes towards 'a', white makes territory on the fourth line instead of the third as in diagram 2 above, so I have a better chance of getting the result I want (the one in the game).

Thanks in advance! :bow:

P.S. The game is still in progress. Over 30 moves have been played since the first diagram above, but if you think what you say can have an impact on the rest of the game, you can just put it in hide tags and I'll read it when the game has progressed a bit more.

Uberdude · #2

I like the simple big corner below. I don't think I will lose if I play this so see no need to play nonsense broken shape.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Easy peasy lemon squeezy $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 2 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

VincentCB · #3

@Uberdude
I discarded this move for various reasons which made perfect sense at the time, but little sense now :oops:

. It's probably a case of over-thinking. I think I should stop thinking - it has never done me any good :blackeye:

!

Uberdude wrote:

...nonsense broken shape

But I LIKE nonsense moves! They're so fun :twisted:

!

Bill Spight · #4

I agree with Uberdude about White's next play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm27 Actual game $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 3 1 4 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 7 9 0 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 8 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But you lucked out. In particular, :b33:

is terrible. A DDK play.

Unlike Uberdude, I would not be so confident about winning. Black is clearly comfortable with a center game. :b27:

looks crazy, but I have seen that play (or one very similar) played against Go Seigen, of all people! Go Seigen lost, too.

Edit: Here is the game.

moyoaji · #5

Black's shoulder hit is a bold move. I don't find any immediate fault in it. Like Uberdude, my first reaction would have been to push up on the other side and take a 5th line corner. That being said, I overvalue territory and I'm not so sure how to proceed after that...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Possible variation 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 2 1 . 8 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Possible variation 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 2 1 . . 7 , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Possible variation 3 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 2 1 . . 7 , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't think any of these seem horrible for white. After all, white has all the points and black has only influence. Still, it is going to come down to how the middle his handled.

I can't imagine broken shape is the right answer. It denies black what he wanted, but I don't think white's group in the center is worth it.

Bill Spight · #6

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Variation 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 2 1 . . 7 , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Compare the above position . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Variation 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 2 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . B . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

With this one.

:w6:

in the first diagram is a slide into nothing. Well, not exactly nothing, but the nine space gap is too wide for Black to claim, and has an open skirt, besides. The exchange, :w6:

-

, actually bolsters Black. It is not like similar slides in the 3-3 joseki (marked), which bolster the White corner.

moyoaji · #7

Bill Spight wrote:

in the first diagram is a slide into nothing. Well, not exactly nothing, but the nine space gap is too wide for Black to claim, and has an open skirt, besides. The exchange, :w6:

-

, actually bolsters Black. It is not like similar slides in the 3-3 joseki (marked), which bolster the White corner.

The slide is to prevent this variation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black's wall is nice $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 2 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

By sliding there, black cannot make his wall like this and must get his points in the center, not from the top.

Yes, that slide does occur in the 3-3 shoulder hit, but I was basing my move on this common middle-game reduction sequence for when you shoulder hit a 3rd line stone:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . . . $$ . . . 3 . . . $$ . . . 1 2 . . $$ . . . . O . . $$ . . 4 . . . . $$ . . . . . . . $$ -------------[/go]

Yes, the spacing on the right is large enough to be invaded, but that wall is impressive and seems like exactly what black would want.

Splatted · #8

@Moyoaji: But in that variation black has given up sente and his wall still doesn't have an extension, so to me that still seems inferior. I also don't think black should be trying build a new moyo on the top side when he has so much potential for one in the centre.

Edit: Consider something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Variation 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 2 1 . . 7 , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't see any easy way for white to enter the moyo now.

Uberdude · #9

Splatted wrote:

I don't see any easy way for white to enter the moyo now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Variation 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 2 1 . . 7 , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 0 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And call Cho Chikun.

Splatted · **#10**

That might be an easy invasion for you but I would definitely struggle. Obviously white will live, but at what cost?

Edit: Does anyone know if Takemiya has ever beaten Cho? This discussion reminded me that all the games I've managed to find between them have been wins for Cho Chikun.

Edit2: I now realise that the "call Cho Chikun" comment meant that you wouldn't find it easy... :roll:

ez4u · **#11**

Back to the original topic... Uberdude had it right about the nonsense shape. The White 'ploy' let's Black cut White without being cut in return. That should be a desperation measure at best. So the simple answer is "Bad"! :sad:

Learn not to do that!

Uberdude · **#12**

I don't know if I would live against myself, it's hard to judge and harder to read. I have little experience of such moves. I was making a joke as Cho excels at living in positions like that.

Hidden from Vincent:

Cho is 43-22 up:

http://www.go4go.net/go/games/twoplayer/98/82

Bill Spight · **#13**

moyoaji wrote:

I was basing my move on this common middle-game reduction sequence for when you shoulder hit a 3rd line stone:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . . . $$ . . . 3 . . . $$ . . . 1 2 . . $$ . . . . O . . $$ . . 4 . . . . $$ . . . . . . . $$ -------------[/go]

Well, there is nothing to reduce, either.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black's wall is nice $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 2 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Indeed. It's a nice wall.

But it is difficult to make comparisons with a different parity of stones. Where would White play now?

moyoaji · **#14**

Bill Spight wrote:

Indeed. It's a nice wall.

But it is difficult to make comparisons with a different parity of stones. Where would White play now?

The difficulty in answering that question is why I avoided that variation.

These are the moves I would consider for white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Possible white moves $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O 7 . . . . . . b a . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 2 1 . . . , . . . d . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . f . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · **#15**

I wasn't trying to put you on the spot, just to get you to make an assessment with the right number of stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Possible Black move $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O 7 . . . . . . B . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 2 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As far as Black is concerned, the top side needs another Black move. :bc:

is an enclosure of the top right corner, but as an extension from the wall, it is one or two spaces too wide. Still, a good point.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Possible White move, var. 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O 7 . . . 9 . 8 . 0 . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 2 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

looks OK to me. :b9:

is a three space extension from a 4 stone high wall, much too close. :w10:

is only a one space extension (cum approach), but at this stage of the game, and inside Black's sphere of influence, that is not so bad.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Possible White move, var. 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O 7 . . 0 . . 8 . 9 . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 2 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is a reasonable extension from the corner. :w10:

is also reasonable, not too close to the Black wall.

What do you think of these positions? Or anything that looks better to you for White? (Or better for Black, if you do not like my replies for Black.) Is the slide better?

moyoaji · **#16**

I think that your second variation looks good for black. This is what I would do.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Looks pretty nice for black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . O 2 . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X . . . 1 . 3 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · **#17**

You are still basing your comparison on a position where Black plays last.

moyoaji · **#18**

Bill Spight wrote:

You are still basing your comparison on a position where Black plays last.

If you insist I'll play out the rest of the standard variation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Still looks nice for black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . O 2 6 O . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X . . . 1 4 3 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

kusto · **#19**

moyoaji wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

You are still basing your comparison on a position where Black plays last.

If you insist I'll play out the rest of the standard variation.
...

Actually the standard variation normally has one more move?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Right about here $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . O 2 6 O . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X . . . 1 4 3 7 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · **#20**

moyoaji wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

You are still basing your comparison on a position where Black plays last.

If you insist I'll play out the rest of the standard variation.

It is not a question of my insisting.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Diagram 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X . . B , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Diagram 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O B . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If you wish to compare Diagram 1 with Diagram 2, of course, Diagram 2 is better for Black, because Black has made one more play than White. The comparison does not tell you whether to make the slide or not.

Now, if you had a good way to evaluate the two numerically and knew how much a play should gain at the time of the slide or block, then you could use evaluation to compare the two. But that is an iffy proposition.

But if you add a White gote to Diagram 2, then you have two positions that you can compare directly, using your judgement.

Was my ploy good or bad?

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