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why o why ...
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9537		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  otenki [ Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:40 am ]
Post subject:  why o why ...
I really felt like a beginner today and I guess in many ways I still am.

I played a game pretty ok against a 3k. I think by the end of the game I was leading by 20-25 points.
Then I missed a ko which made my oponent be able to connect a group back.
Then I resigned, only to see in the review that I actauly was still winning by 10 points after missing that ko & he connects his group. (black play j7)

Any tips for not doing these kind of stupid things. I really hate myself for it :-)
(i'm black btw :-))

Thanks,
Otenki
Author:  emerus [ Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: why o why ...
Around 3k, I had an uncanny ability to blunder decisive victories away. This didn't shake me much because I believe that it is important to fight over every point and learn from every confrontation. To me, winning is secondary. I thought I would share my mindset on that because it sounds like you're beating yourself up.

The issue in this case was L3 to J2 but in a general sense, it's your positional judgement. Have you heard of DrStraws counting lessons? I feel like that's a good first step towards positional judgement. Start by applying it in endgame situations. Did you really need to cut so deep at :black:215 if you had a comfortable lead? Was the potential 1-2 points by playing at j2 instead of h2 worth the risk? That would be a good start on positional judgement. The next step would be determining things like invading/reducing and expanding/solidifying frameworks in the middle game.

These two steps really helped me gain a few ranks quickly and are important skills to have. For our levels, I think if we studied and applied these, it wouldn't be hard to gain some rank.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: why o why ...
There is an important concept that could help your play.

When you have an approach move to a 4-4 stone like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc With or without a stone at 'a'.
$$--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . a . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

...and you invade at the 3-3, you are offering to sacrifice the approach stone to facilitate the invasion. This is often done when the approach stone is in trouble, and sacrificing it is easier than defending it. An example might be something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Abandon it, and get compensation in the corner
$$--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . X . O .
$$ | . . . O . . . O .
$$ | . . . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


However, when the approach stone is useful, it is better to play like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . X . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

...or like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


You did this in two of the four corners, and in both instances your approach stone was important. See moves 105 and 171. In both instances, if you keep that stone alive, you probably kill one of his groups.
Author:  Loons [ Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: why o why ...
What was up with S16?
Author:  Uberdude [ Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: why o why ...
F3 was the wrong side to approach given your centre stones. See viewtopic.php?p=148670#p148670 and also shapenaji's game in that thread for how to use the centre shimari.
Author:  otenki [ Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: why o why ...
emerus wrote:
Around 3k, I had an uncanny ability to blunder decisive victories away. This didn't shake me much because I believe that it is important to fight over every point and learn from every confrontation. To me, winning is secondary. I thought I would share my mindset on that because it sounds like you're beating yourself up.

The issue in this case was L3 to J2 but in a general sense, it's your positional judgement. Have you heard of DrStraws counting lessons? I feel like that's a good first step towards positional judgement. Start by applying it in endgame situations. Did you really need to cut so deep at :black:215 if you had a comfortable lead? Was the potential 1-2 points by playing at j2 instead of h2 worth the risk? That would be a good start on positional judgement. The next step would be determining things like invading/reducing and expanding/solidifying frameworks in the middle game.

These two steps really helped me gain a few ranks quickly and are important skills to have. For our levels, I think if we studied and applied these, it wouldn't be hard to gain some rank.


I seem to have gotten to the point where I know how to count but just forget or am worried about so much other things I don't have time for it.
I guess it comes down to the fact that I need to be more disciplined ?

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
There is an important concept that could help your play......


Wow! I think you just discovered a huge bad habbit in my play.
I will think of the different posibilities in this situation instead of just 3-3 and treating my stone light.
Indeed no need to ALWAYS sacrifice in this situation, only when needed.
Thank you so much!

Loons wrote:
What was up with S16?


I've seen this played against me a few times in games against stronger players and wanted to try it out.
Keep in mind that I'm trying to provoke a fight towards the center rather than make teritory or a stable group.
Is this move bad ? What would you have played ?

Uberdude wrote:
F3 was the wrong side to approach given your centre stones. See http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 70#p148670 and also shapenaji's game in that thread for how to use the centre shimari.


I understand a little bit but really not more than a little bit.
Isn't this just another style of playing?

Or did my oponent fail to punish my mistake, should he have played at O17 aproach instead ?

Can you elaborate ?

Thanks,
Otenki
Author:  Uberdude [ Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: why o why ...
otenki wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
F3 was the wrong side to approach given your centre stones. See viewto ... 70#p148670 and also shapenaji's game in that thread for how to use the centre shimari.


I understand a little bit but really not more than a little bit.
Isn't this just another style of playing?

Or did my oponent fail to punish my mistake, should he have played at O17 aproach instead ?

Can you elaborate ?


Just answering the approach with the knight's move 'punishes' your mistake in direction. The general strategy to effectively use the centre shimari is to make large extensions which if the opponent invades lead to fighting that the centre stones help with. When you map out territories they should be like boxes. If you approach on the left you use your shimari as one of the walls of the box:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Good box using centre shimari
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ {LN A14 K14}
$$ {LN K14 K6}
$$ {LN K6 A6}[/go]


The way you played you made a box that didn't use the centre shimari so your stones aren't efficient

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Bad box not centre shimari
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 5 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ {LN F1 F4}
$$ {LN F4 O4}
$$ {LN O4 O1}[/go]


Even better would be to approach on the right side to make a giant box using your top right corner stone:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Great box using centre shimari and corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ {LN T6 K6}
$$ {LN K6 K16}
$$ {LN K16 T16}[/go]
Author:  otenki [ Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: why o why ...
Uberdude wrote:
Just answering the approach with the knight's move 'punishes' your mistake in direction. The general strategy to effectively use the centre shimari is to make large extensions which if the opponent invades lead to fighting that the centre stones help with. When you map out territories they should be like boxes. If you approach ...


I totally understand, I guess I was over-complicating the idea of this fuseki in my mind.
You explained it so simple... now I can go back and play easier games. (and maybe win them :-))

Thanks!
Otenki
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