I was browsing through Kuroki Goishi Ten (henceforth KGT) and had a question. Is there a particular quality possessed by Huyga-kaya boards that Hon-kaya boards cannot achieve?

From what I can see, Hyuga-kaya boards are made using kaya trees harvested in the Hyuga region. Apparently these, kaya trees in the Hyuga region are protected by environmental regulations. They grow slowly and cannot be harvested without government approval. This explains why the supply is low. However, is the price just due to the low supply?

From the photos posted on KGT, I cannot really tell the difference between the finest Hon-kaya boards and Hyuga-kaya boards. Is there some quality that I am missing? I've read that Hyuga-kaya has closer grains, but I can't really tell the difference from the pictures on KGT. Then again, Mr. Kuroki makes some fine boards, so perhaps the difference would be more noticeable if a lesser craftsman were to handle the wood.

I don't plan on buying a board (not any time soon...), but the huge price gap tickled my curiosity.

Normally, I would suppose that it is just a supply issue, but if Hon-kaya and Hyuga-kaya are roughly interchangeable, then the supply issue may be overstated. Is it mostly about conspicuous consumption, i.e., showing others that one has the wealth to purchase a Hyuga-kaya board?

Could anyone enlighten me on this subject (perhaps tchan, the local equipment expert)?

According to JF in the book The Go Player's Almanac 2001 in his article A Survey of the Best in Go Equipment: "The reason Miyazaki kaya (also called Hyuga kaya from the old name for Miyazaki) is superior has to do with the climate and soil, which are favourably affected by the Kuroshio current (the Japan current). Good kaya is obtainable elsewhere, but generally the more northern trees have a whiter colour and less elasticity."

Later on JF says:

"There is considerable wastage on a tree because only the bole below the first branch is used, to avoid knots (although incipient knots may still be found there). From this part about 70 boards can usually be made from Miyazaki kaya, while kaya from other areas gives about 50 boards because of a shorter bole."

I take it to mean that the Hyuga kaya trees are much older and bigger than those from other areas of Japan.

According to Kiseido: "Kaya trees are found all over Japan. However, it is the trees found in Miyazaki prefecture, Japan, which are the most highly prized, in particular, the trees harvested from Mount Aya in Hyuga. Because of the warm Japan Current, which runs past Miyazaki, boards cut from these trees have a closer grain and a more pleasing color."

My take on this is that the trees are grown in a harsher environment and therefore more slowly hence they have a closer grain.

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In my opinion, I would prefer buying a honkaya table board or even a Chinese origin kaya one piece table board if it is a properly dried Japanese crafted masame cut (straight lined woodgrain on the playing surface) as opposed to a similarly priced multi-piece Hyuga kaya table board. You can look at my Chinese origin kaya one piece table board here.

If you are talking about buying a floor goban, I'd prefer a better cut in honkaya or Chinese origin kaya than a lesser cut in Hyuga kaya assuming both would have nice close grains and nice even mellow yellow to orange color.
For example, compare the following from Kurokigoishi's website:
- Item No.3233 Hyuga Kaya Go Board with Legs, Kiura, 5.1sun (15.5cm) for JPY230,000 [Reddish color overall. Blue mold was found and wiped off as shown on the side photo.]
compared with
- Item No.4387 Hon-Kaya Go Board with Legs for JPY198,000 [Tenchi-masam 6.4-sun (19.2cm thick)]

Look at the top of both boards and you can see how the pattern of the kiura cut is not as pleasing for playing go as the tenchi-masam cut.

But of course if price is not a major consideration, do by all means go for the rarest and most expensive board you happen upon which you can afford within your budget.

And then there are boards which you might happen upon which you might consider buying for other reasons. [1] [2]

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http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

The finer grain, as well as the straight grain, is desirable because it doesn't obtrude in looking at the positions of the stones on the board. A coarse or bent grain is distracting, drawing your attention to the grain rather than the pattern of the stones. The fine-grained Hyuga kaya has a beautiful grain that you can appreciate but it doesn't demand attention. In judging the quality traditionally, the grain is just one factor. The color of the wood is important, too, as well as the quality of workmanship in making the board and drawing the lines and the uchiaji (the feel and sound of playing stones on it). The uchiaji is partly determined by the density of the wood; it must not be too hard nor too soft. As you can see in various pictures, some kaya boards have darker and lighter areas on the face which would be considered a minus in judging the board. The two types of bent grain boards, kiura and kiomote, are considered inferior to masame (straight) grain boards. Excellent boards can be made from kaya wood (torreya nucifera) from other places than Miyazaki prefecture in Japan, but it is harder to find the qualities of a really excellent board. For example, you may find masame cut but the grain is more widely spaced and coarser looking. Bent grain floor boards are an economical alternative to expensive masame cut floor boards. You could spend $200,000 on an antique masterpiece masame board by a master maker but you wouldn't want to actually use it for playing because of the risk of damaging it. Bent grain boards are often used by professional players in tournaments. The televised NHK tournament, for example, uses a kiura floor board with legs, with the area of bent grain quite narrow.

Thanks (to both) for the info! Interesting.

The idea that a skilled player can be distracted into a mistake by wood grain is either elitist or silly. If the wood interfered with one's ability to play we'd all have clean white boards. The technical requirements that demand a certain wood structure are easy to figure out. Just look at any functional piece of woodcraft like how the spokes differ from the rim of a wooden wheel or the planar pieces that make up a one-piece drawer side. But aesthetics of wood grain patterns in furniture are strictly subjective.

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David Bogie, Boise ID
I play go, I ride a recumbent, of course I use Macintosh.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that he would lose focus and make a mistake. Rather, the idea is that he would lose focus and ruin his aesthetic enjoyment of the game. It's sort of like how bad lighting might ruin a painting in a museum. It's not that, with the glare, I can't see that the woman is taking her monkey for a walk; rather, it's that the mindset in which I'm enjoying the painting is ruined.

I didn't mean that the player would be made to make a bad move, just that the conditions for deep concentration would not be ideal. It is largely a matter of esthetics and hence subjective, and it is also a matter of degree. Different people are different and all that. But imagine a board with prominent dark grain lines that wander all over the board, for example. You want to be focussing on the rectangular grid, not on the wood grain.

I guess you'd enjoy staring at the go patterns on a clean white board outdoors on a clear day. I wouldn't.

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http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

Perhaps not the perfect solution

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Patience, grasshopper.

I had a chance to spend a few hours with Mr. Kuroki last month when I visited his shop. It was the first time I had a chance to look over a Hyuga board and in comparison the grain is much finer than other native boards (very attractive!) but that aside I didn't notice a huge difference. The finer grain does make for a more beautiful board but you can find good Kaya all over Japan.



I agree with you concerning Honkaya. You can find high quality cuts from all over Japan (still a bit pricey though).

I have mixed feelings about Chinese Kaya. Having played on both types of floor and table board I noticed a strong difference in quality. Chinese Kaya seems weaker and more easily dented (which I believe mean it'll crack more easily). Furthermore the clicking sound made by the stones is very weak by comparison. On the bright side though, they do have the pleasing color and gorgeous smell of their Japanese cousins.

In short Chinese Kaya (in my opinion) is a good cheap substitute for Japanese, but lacks in quality.

If you want to buy a good board contact Mr. Kuroki or Mr. Bozulich (from Kisedo). Mr. Kuroki can put together a good set for you from his supply of stock and Mr. Bozulich is incredibly knowledgeable with a lot of ties to the go industry in Japan; he can usually find anything your looking for.

I'll chime in here, as I am one of those unfortunate persons who is somewhat interested in what makes nice things particularly nice, and I suffer from the prices that those things fetch - heavy copper french pots and pans might be an example, as they rapidly respond to changes in heat and in doing so, cook foods very precisely, (depending on the chef, of course!).

One of the reasons that a tight grain is important in goban woods is that the wood is softer in-between the annular rings than it is in the darker rings themselves. An example of a goban that has very wide growth rings is that it is subject to becoming heavily indented in those whitish areas between the dark annular rings, and thus, over time, become more pitted in a place which is less likely to lie near an intersection of the grid lines. Therefore, stones may settle into an area that is not in its proper place as the game progresses, (due to vibration, etc.) This is a different quality from the one that makes slashing, diagonal patterns on the board, (which may interfere with the concentration of the player.) Hyugakaya was well known for its tendencies to have a tight grain, as well as a reddish hue, which is an indication of its high oil content. This oil content is an excellent indication of its ability to remain stable in changes in humidity, as well as the ability to inhibit mold growth, (blue and grey streaks,) both before, and after the felling of the tree. A world class board will have all of the desired qualities, i.e., straight grain, tight grain, reddish hue, etc. It may be from any area, but at one time, they were found in more abundance in the remote areas surrounding Mt. Aya. Boards from these remote areas tended to be cut from older trees, as they are not nearly as accessible, and older trees tend to have a higher percentage of heart wood, which is denser, and has a much higher oil content than sapwood. Sapwood is lighter and has less of the desirable oil content, as well as other less desirable qualities. Also, heartwood has long been recognized for inhibiting the infestation of insects as well, a quality which was, undoubtedly, not lost on the goban builders of antiquity. From the viewpoint of structural stability, tenchimasa has always been the most desirable cut. Shihoumasa was sometimes favored for its aesthetics in the past, but has now been surpassed by masame, probably due to the nearly complete unavailability of trees of a suitable age for those fine sections of long ago. Contemporary masame boards will almost universally place the denser heartwood above, with the annular rings perpendicular to the board's top, thereby maximizing the integrity of the surface so that the stones do not make indentations in undesirable positions.

Dents occur almost anywhere on the top face of the board, no matter what kind of kaya it is, because players bang the stones down (from kiai) in places other than where the lines intersect. So any kaya board which is used a lot will acquire the appearance of hammered metal, with small dents all over the surface. More serious dents occur when people drop stones onto the surface by accident and the stone lands edge down. The solution to any of these dent problems is to take the board to your nearest go board maker to have the surface planed and the lines redrawn

Just to summarize the collective knowledge in this thread (and some of my conclusions after reading them):

1) If all we knew about two boards was that one was Hyuga-kaya and the other Hon-kaya, both made in Japan, we would believe that Hyuga-kaya is more likely to possess properties that are considered desirable such as close grains and high oil content. That is, it is not that there are good properties unique to Hyuga-kaya, but that those good qualities occur with higher probability in Hyuga-kaya.

2) Closeness of grains is more of an aesthetic property and thus somewhat subjective.

3) High-oil content seems to have objective benefits with regards to board preservation, which seems like a nontrivial benefit considering the cost of these boards.

4) Chinese Kaya boards tend to be inferior not because of the quality of the wood but because of the quality of the craftsmanship/manufacturing/selection/drying process.

5) High quality Japanese Hon-kaya boards that roughly match the quality of Hyuga-kaya boards can be found if we are able to examine the board before purchasing it.

6) The highest quality Hyuga-kaya board probably is better than the highest quality Hon-kaya board, but is probably beyond the purchasing power of anyone who isn't a millionaire. [edit: H/T to Ed]

...

Thanks for all the interesting and detailed information, everyone! Like I said earlier, I won't be buying a board, but the question of why certain things are valued (by some or by most or by all) is always interesting.

(I changed the bold to underline for easier reading). Hon-Typo in there somewhere?

Hyuga-kaya wood is much rarer than other honkaya wood as it is protected and cannot be readily harvested anymore.
Closeness of grains is very much a determination of the value of the board. As said before, it tells you that such a board is made from a much much older tree. There is a difference between being dented (which will happen on any kaya board because that a desired property of the board to help go stones last longer) and being dented heavily from properly played stones. Serious dents from dropping stones where the stone lands edge down is not properly played, it's an accident. So if someone slams stones with the same motion between tight grained vs. less tight grained kaya, the pits should be much more noticeable in the latter.

The Chinese kaya boards I'm talking about are not ones made in China. There is a huge difference depending on where it's made. As I've said before, the ones I like are ones made with proper JAPANESE craftsmanship/manufacturing/selection/drying process. And my one piece does have a nice reddish tint and high oil content. I also have a multi piece hguya-kaya board from kurokigoishi and I still prefer my properly made one-piece Chinese kaya board made with traditional Japanese craftsmanship.

Pricing and desirability is not only a matter of the highest quality but also of rarity and demand from the market which in the case of hyuga kaya is much much higher than for honkaya boards and chinese kaya in general.

In any case, kaya is desirable because there is less and less of this wood in any form. Don't expect even chinese kaya to be available for the long term because it is not allowed to be cut in China anymore. Most kaya boards that are Japanese crafted and available today are from old inventory which will be hard to replace as time goes by.

I'm of course talking about the old old Chinese kaya trees which take hundreds of years to grow to get to the size needed for a floor goban. There are cultivated kaya trees in China but they would be much too young to use for gobans. I read on some Chinese website that the Chinese kaya (Torreya grandis) is cultivated to harvest the fruit as a rare delicacy for human consumption.

The best article I've found on kaya wood is this article in Chinese. (Use google translate to get a better understanding of the article)
http://www.dyrsmen.com/company/doc-2-13213.html
As noted in the article, very few countries now allow the harvest of the really old kaya trees and I've read previously that China was one of the countries which outlawed it. I can't find a link to the article I read a long time ago though. But basically it said something about newer sources for ancient kaya wood in China came from places like Myanmar (Burma).

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http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

That is really interesting. Could kaya boards be a nice investment vehicle? It might beat a T-bill.

That is why I ordered the best honkaya board that Mr. Kuroki had to offer (in my price range.) The same board would have cost 5-10 times the price if the tree had been harvested in the Hyuga area. At the time that I bought it, it was priced comparably with the finest masame boards from Hyuga, but was of considerably better quality. I could not afford it today, the exchange rate being less favorable, and the selection more limited.

T-bills are infinitely more liquid, however the yield lately is approximately zero, and they are not as much fun to play on.

It is true that resale of kaya boards would not be very easy. Furthermore, if you want to use a kaya board as an investment it would be wise not to play on it. Dents and other signs of use are inevitable and would affect the value negatively. The market for investment quality boards would mostly be in Japan. The best strategy might be to make some arrangement to store the board in Japan. That way prospective purchasers could examine the board before buying it and there would be no shipment of the board back and forth which would increase the risk of damage.

I would wholeheartedly agree, there would be little or no market outside of Japan for an ultra-fine quality goban. And I have noticed that some Japanese gentlemen and gentlewomen are rather particular about their belongings, much preferring something brand new, or at least in absolutely pristine condition. Naturally! Who in the world would not rather have a new Mercedes than an old one?

Well if it's a classic Mercedes, some would definitely appreciate it more than a new one.
Likewise, if an ultra-fine quality old goban is made and signed by a very important goban maker like Hirai Yoshimatsu 平井芳松 and in reasonably good shape, then you'll be surprised how many Japanese people would want to bid for and how high they would bid for such an auction item.

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http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.