Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?

Pippen · #1

One of those game that I (White) felt slipped away right from the beginning. Where is the crucial mistake? My feeling is that Black got too much moyo at the beginning I should have prevented or should have reduced better.

daal · #2

What about M16? It induced your opponent into strengthening his moyo, it doesn't really make territory, and defending O17 is not critical as it has two ways to go (connect or move into the corner). I'm not sure of a better move (somewhere around M13, where your opponent played perhaps?), but I'm curious if anyone agrees with me.

Bill Spight · #3

I don't know if it is crucial, but :w8:

at R-09 or R-10 (wedge) is usual.

Also, for

I like a double kakari better than the 3-3.

Bill Spight · #4

A few more comments.

Uberdude · #5

Bill Spight wrote:

I don't know if it is crucial, but :w8:

at R-09 or R-10 (wedge) is usual.

Also, for

I like a double kakari better than the 3-3.

[citation needed]

That approach looked utterly normal to me. Checking my database I get 149 hits, to 45 for r10 and 11 for r9. Black did win a little over 50% with approach and a little under with the wedges, but even if it is a mistake (which I don't believe) it's pretty irrelevant unless you and your opponent play the rest of the game at a 13p level. I do like double kakari though seeing as black played a loose pincer.

As for crucial mistakes as in replaying the game I fall out my chair without even having to think "what's a better move":

48 q2. Giving up the 2 stones is so huge and makes your ko threat tiny.
54 f18. You let him win the ko in sente. Too humilating. If you wanted to play here if he won the ko, you shouldn't have started the ko (and could instead have attacked e12 group with cap).
56 c13. Eww, so crude
64 d2: What are you doing? I thought the point of the crude c13 cut was to attack black and save your k10 stone, but then you just decided to give black 30 points in the centre with his weak group? (well they aren't points yet, but once he gets the first move he's attacking you rather than vice versa).

Bill Spight · #6

Uberdude wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

I don't know if it is crucial, but :w8:

at R-09 or R-10 (wedge) is usual.

Also, for

I like a double kakari better than the 3-3.

[citation needed]

That approach looked utterly normal to me. Checking my database I get 149 hits, to 45 for r10 and 11 for r9. Black did win a little over 50% with approach and a little under with the wedges, but even if it is a mistake (which I don't believe) it's pretty irrelevant unless you and your opponent play the rest of the game at a 13p level.

If White is not happy playing against a large Black moyo, I think the wedge stands out.

Pippen · #7

Uberdude wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

I don't know if it is crucial, but :w8:

at R-09 or R-10 (wedge) is usual.

Also, for

I like a double kakari better than the 3-3.

[citation needed]

That approach looked utterly normal to me. Checking my database I get 149 hits, to 45 for r10 and 11 for r9. Black did win a little over 50% with approach and a little under with the wedges, but even if it is a mistake (which I don't believe) it's pretty irrelevant unless you and your opponent play the rest of the game at a 13p level. I do like double kakari though seeing as black played a loose pincer.

As for crucial mistakes as in replaying the game I fall out my chair without even having to think "what's a better move":

48 q2. Giving up the 2 stones is so huge and makes your ko threat tiny.
54 f18. You let him win the ko in sente. Too humilating. If you wanted to play here if he won the ko, you shouldn't have started the ko (and could instead have attacked e12 group with cap).
56 c13. Eww, so crude
64 d2: What are you doing? I thought the point of the crude c13 cut was to attack black and save your k10 stone, but then you just decided to give black 30 points in the centre with his weak group? (well they aren't points yet, but once he gets the first move he's attacking you rather than vice versa).

thx, überdude (and others who tried to help). It's interesting and helped me to see that I lost the game not at the beginning as I thought.

I usually avoid a double kakari in a double wing scenario like almost all pro's do (checked it on MasterGo). Because if you double kakari black will play at 3-3 and set up a strong fighting position where black has the advantage.

Uberdude · #8

Pippen wrote:

I usually avoid a double kakari in a double wing scenario like almost all pro's do (checked it on MasterGo). Because if you double kakari black will play at 3-3 and set up a strong fighting position where black has the advantage.

That is true if he plays a tight pincer, but not a loose one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White 1 lots of space, fight is fine for white $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 3 . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White 1 cramped, hard fight $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 3 . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(And I checked GoGoD and double approach is slightly more popular than 3-3 in this quadrant for loose pincer; with tight pincer 3-3 is 10-times as popular).

Joaz Banbeck · #9

Bill Spight wrote:

Uberdude wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

I don't know if it is crucial, but :w8:

at R-09 or R-10 (wedge) is usual.

Also, for

I like a double kakari better than the 3-3.

[citation needed]

That approach looked utterly normal to me. Checking my database I get 149 hits, to 45 for r10 and 11 for r9. Black did win a little over 50% with approach and a little under with the wedges, but even if it is a mistake (which I don't believe) it's pretty irrelevant unless you and your opponent play the rest of the game at a 13p level.

If White is not happy playing against a large Black moyo, I think the wedge stands out.

Regardless of frequency of play among pros, R6 at move 8 - approaching black's strength early - seems to be a clear statement by white that he is wllling to take the corner in return for allowing the beginnings of a black moyo. I would not call this a 'crucial mistake', but I would call it a crucial choice. The wedge at this point would have produced a game apparently more in line with white's prefered style.

Joaz Banbeck · **#10**

Move 20 seems theoretically adequate, but again not in line with white's preferred style. Q11 might be fun here, or maybe P10.

The closest thing that I can find to a mistake is move 22. With N5, black has delared his intention to create a moyo. Playing 22 at K16 allows N15 in sente, which fits too well with black's plans.

Uberdude · **#11**

What is white's preferred style?

Joaz Banbeck · **#12**

Uberdude wrote:

What is white's preferred style?

Not playing against a moyo.

The OP says that he didn't like the result of black's moyo. So I point out moves that led him down that path.

Uberdude · **#13**

Oh right. Wedges rather than approaches will tend to avoid moyos more. Looking at the game again, I wonder about playing honte at n3 in answer to black's knight's move. It might seem a bit slow, but it is very big reverse sente and has lots of nice followups. If you play thick shapes like this it's a lot easier to invade/reduce later. With the loose pincer black owes a move at q6. If he doesn't defend here you can later put your initial approach stone in motion with s6 (as with all 4-4 pincer joseki). n5 for n3 then becomes a bad exchange as black has lost o4 being sente so the fighting is harder for him. In fact rather than n5 I think it might be better for black to push along at o4. This way would be gote, but then black gets a thick wall and can reasonably fight much harder on the right side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Honte and followups. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O d . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b 1 . . . X X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . X . e . . . . 2 O . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Another idea: if you play k16 at l16 it's harder for black to get the free sente move to help grow his moyo.

Bill Spight · **#14**

Uberdude wrote:

Looking at the game again, I wonder about playing honte at n3 in answer to black's knight's move.

I like it myself. But I would not be in that situation.

Quote:

Another idea: if you play k16 at l16 it's harder for black to get the free sente move to help grow his moyo.

Or at N-14.

Pippen · **#15**

Yeah, move 22 at K16 gives black the option to create a moyo in sente. My alternatives:

1. O16...high kakari aviods black moyo better because of center influence
2. N14...loose move, almost in zen-style, but effective to decline black an easy moyo

I don not like L16 too much, because it seems to me black could still pressure down white in sente to create a big moyo.

sholvar · **#16**

I think this game is a good example of why just knowing good and bad moves is not everything in Go. It's also a game of spirits, answering the question of who is better at forcing the other one to his will. This guy didn't have to struggle once, because you never questioned his plan. You always followed nicely, taking small locally good moves and let him have his way. That's not a way to win.

Look at the following advice from Bill Spight:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It is probably not the best move and you won't find much about it in any Go book or database, but it shows exactly the spirit needed! Black wants to build a moyo, so what can you do to stop him?

Have you ever played such kind of move? Even though it looks wrong and feels scary, just to punch the other one in his ugly face (not literally, of course

). Well, maybe you can give it a try. Probably you won't just see an improvement in game but also an improvement in excitement, because of the higher risk involved and that special feeling if you develop a tactic that is yours and not just taken from a book.

------------------------------------------------------------------
And to also discuss a little about the moves, I don't think K16 was a mistake. Actually I'm quite sure it isn't, even though I'm many ranks lower then most other participants in the discussion. The reason for my strong believe is that I read about this corner position just some days ago:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . O . . e . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . d b . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |[/go]

What I understood is this: a is a very big invasion for black, sometimes it's so big that he should play it imidiately after the joseki. White on the other hand really want's to play at b to increase his top side moyo and protect a. The extension at b can be stopped with c, though, which itself is a very, very good extension of his right side moyo for black, if he has one (like in the game). So Black really likes a and he really likes c and in some regard he also likes to protect the corner at some point. But what he really doesn't like is to play around b...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc a suboptimal play by black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . @ . . b . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . # . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

The thing is that 1 doesn't really help with a, in fact it often leads white to defend a in some way (what happened in the game), destroying a really awesome invasion for black. Also it doesn't protect the corner very well. So even if White doesn't respond directly (which I would suggest in the game) a is not so great anymore, because the marked white stone is not dead yet and with 1 and a we already invested 2 stones to get the value of one move. White can still invade the corner, right? Last but not least 1 and the marked black stone don't work so well together. It seems so inefficient to have both on the board. Extending out one more is even worse I'd figure, because it gives white some additional cutting aji and thus maybe a way into the moyo.

So this was the theory as I learned it from various books, online articles and youtube videos over the last couple of days. Correct me, if anything's wrong. Anyway, concluding from this I'd say, that K16 was well played and white's continuation on N15 was actually a mistake. It just doesn't look so wrong, because in the game white simply obeys instead of starting to fight or invade and white's answer might've even looked relatively big and urgent locally.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc a suboptimal play by black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . c . O . . d . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 a . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . b , X . . |[/go]

So I'd suggest white leaves the joseki intact but instead of bowing his head to 1 he starts to fight with a or invades at b, hoping to use the weakness at a as aji to help his invasion. To some degree moves around c and d are miai in my eyes, so they can be played later on, with c being a little better if white has some thickness showing towards the top side (e.g. from the top-left corner) and d being a little better if black gets a stable group on the top side.

For black instead of 1 I'd say:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . a , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black shouldn't play N15, but either remove the big weakness at a or play on the wide open side with b. He shouldn't worry so much about c, because his response at d will be the perfect continuation of his moyo and his is just bigger (yes, size matters

).
I'd prefer b slightly, because 'a' somehow feels a little slow.

lemmata · **#17**

I am pretty weak, so don't take this as advice. I just want to see what the many strong players here think.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . a . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . c , # . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . @ . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . # . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . # . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I look at this board and think

Black's position on the bottom is thin and open. Black position on the bottom is center-oriented and not territory-oriented.
Black played a wide pincer in the lower right corner and did not subdue the approach stone forcefully and decided to surround on a larger scale. However, the pincer stone is low.
White has already secured some territory in the two bottom corners. Black has not secured any territory yet.

So then I would have the following objectives...

Plan out the game so that I will have the opportunity to reduce the right side by taking advantage of the low pincer stone and the aji of the approach stone.
It's okay to let the approach [EDIT] stone die, but make sure that it is not captured on a large scale.
It's okay to let black take some territory as long as we can limit his influence and look to reduce the right side.

I would play at K16(a) and

If black encloses the upper right corner at O17(b), immediately start reducing the right side.
If black approaches at C14(d), white can block the corner and take sente to start reducing the right side (c?). If black picks a fight, use the fight to try and erase black's influence by creating some thickness in the center.

This is sort of my personal style. I often end up playing somewhat drawn out games. I wonder if it's too passive? It's probably suboptimal (please let me know why if you know!) as well, but it works okay against players of my level.

Loons · **#18**

Like Lemmata, I like K16.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc A point of comparison $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . W . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

As an idle thought, can white play Q18 instead of K16 in the game?

sholvar · **#19**

I saw the following Exercise in the book Chinese Opening, page 75 and 78, "Problem 2". For a reasonable discussion I have to spoiler the problem's answer, so anybody who doesn't want that should not click the spoiler below!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Where should black play? Problem 2, Kato Masao 1977 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?

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