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Offline FluffM
 Post subject: 7k vs 7k: Where did I go wrong?
Post #1 Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:35 am 
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I thought this was a closer game than it was... I was beat by 50 points! Can someone help me with where I went wrong? Meanwhile I'm off to continue studying life and death... :study:
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Offline mw42
 Post subject: Re: 7k vs 7k: Where did I go wrong?
Post #2 Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:59 am 
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:b23: @ s7 is better. It is a better move to remove aji.
:b27: is no good, I think the result shows that. If you want to atari that stone, play o6 then tenuki.
:b43: is better at b18 to keep the pressure on white's group.
:b73: is certainly overplay. You should probably just defend yourself at m17. If you played patiently, and white tried to invade your corner/right side, the extra stones you get in the area would help you attack the white group. This fight is where you lost the game. Once the dust is settled, and white plays c8, I don't think you can win.

This post by mw42 was liked by: FluffM
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Offline FluffM
 Post subject: Re: 7k vs 7k: Where did I go wrong?
Post #3 Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:38 am 
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mw42 wrote:
:b23: @ s7 is better. It is a better move to remove aji.
:b27: is no good, I think the result shows that. If you want to atari that stone, play o6 then tenuki.
:b43: is better at b18 to keep the pressure on white's group.
:b73: is certainly overplay. You should probably just defend yourself at m17. If you played patiently, and white tried to invade your corner/right side, the extra stones you get in the area would help you attack the white group. This fight is where you lost the game. Once the dust is settled, and white plays c8, I don't think you can win.


Thank you for the help. Definitely a couple moves in there that I didn't consider...
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Offline EdLee
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Post #4 Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:34 am 
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mw42 wrote:
:b23: @ s7 is better. It is a better move to remove aji.
No. :b23: (sente) is better than s7 (gote).
mw42 wrote:
:b27: is no good, I think the result shows that. If you want to atari that stone, play o6 then tenuki.
:b43: is better at b18 to keep the pressure on white's group.
Yes.
FluffM wrote:
Can someone help me with where I went wrong?
Yes. Things like :b27: (as m42 noted), and :b29:, :b31:, :b33: -- what were you doing with this group? You just gave W a ton of points for nothing! :)
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Offline FluffM
 Post subject: Re:
Post #5 Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:19 am 
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EdLee wrote:
FluffM wrote:
Can someone help me with where I went wrong?
Yes. Things like :b27: (as m42 noted), and :b29:, :b31:, :b33: -- what were you doing with this group? You just gave W a ton of points for nothing! :)


I was hoping that I could somehow capture white's group but, yeah, I had no exit strategy for my group. Was there any way I could have salvaged it to my advantage after :b33:? It sounds like I should have just atari'd from above at :b27:.
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Offline mw42
 Post subject: Re:
Post #6 Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:31 am 
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EdLee wrote:
mw42 wrote:
:b23: @ s7 is better. It is a better move to remove aji.
No. :b23: (sente) is better than s7 (gote).

Sente and gote isn't always the most important consideration. S7 is better shape.
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Offline EdLee
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Post #7 Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:22 am 
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mw42 wrote:
Sente and gote isn't always the most important consideration. S7 is better shape.
You are correct that sente and gote isn't ALWAYS the most important, but it is here.
You are also correct that S7 is better shape.
However, :b23: is still better than S7 -- pro opinion. YMMV.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: 7k vs 7k: Where did I go wrong?
Post #8 Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:39 am 
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A few comments. :)


_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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Offline mw42
 Post subject: Re: 7k vs 7k: Where did I go wrong?
Post #9 Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:41 am 
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Sorry, but what does "pro opinion" mean?
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Offline EdLee
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Post #10 Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:13 am 
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mw42, opinion of a professional.
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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: 7k vs 7k: Where did I go wrong?
Post #11 Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:20 am 
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EdLee wrote:
mw42, opinion of a professional.


Well duh! I think what he means is which pro? What position? Do you have a pro at your club (or online?) that you showed this exact position to to get their opinion? Or are you interpreting a pro's opinion about a similar position, and therefore the differences may be important and your interpretation incorrect?
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Offline EdLee
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Post #12 Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:23 am 
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Uberdude, well duh, this exact position.
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Offline mw42
 Post subject: Re: 7k vs 7k: Where did I go wrong?
Post #13 Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:41 am 
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EdLee, perhaps you can ask him why sente is better in this position? I appreciate the effort, but stating that something is just better isn't particularly instructive.
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Offline EdLee
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Post #14 Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:26 pm 
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mw42, Uberdude,
Different people have different attitudes and approaches to taking lessons and receiving information.
I learned this the hard way a few years ago on this very forum, and I have no intention of repeating my mistake.

Given the following:
Quote:
Amateur: Better shape is more important than sente/gote here.
Pro: Sente is more important than better shape here.
Having just received a free pro lesson, my response is, "Oh, thank you very much."
Rather than questioning pro opinion, I would study it more and if I still don't understand, seek further help (without expecting more freebies).
mw42 wrote:
...but stating that something is just better isn't particularly instructive.
You mean like stating better shape is better? Perhaps you can study why sente is more important here.
Ishida wrote:
The patterns have been evaluated as equal, favorable, slightly favorable, etc,. but the reader should not worry too much about these labels. He should judge for himself and if he feels that a pattern we call unfavorable is favorable, he should go ahead and play it. If he then agrees with us, he can discard it. This freedom is the privilege of amateur players. (My emphasis.)
Ronin (1998) wrote:
At the end of the day we are likely to be punished for our kindnesses.
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Offline Redundant
 Post subject: Re: 7k vs 7k: Where did I go wrong?
Post #15 Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:07 pm 
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EdLee

The problem is that pro opinion is not some monolith. Some positions will get different responses depending on the pro. I can't say whether this position is one of them, but just my $.02
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Offline mw42
 Post subject: Re: 7k vs 7k: Where did I go wrong?
Post #16 Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:46 pm 
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EdLee, I didn't mean to give offense. Unfortunately, sente/gote is somewhat mysterious to me in the early game so using it as a reason is obscure. Shape, on the other hand, is something that I can understand. If FluffM didn't understand why my move was better shape (hence didn't understand my stated reason), I would attempt to explain. I was only asking for a little further explanation because I would like to understand.
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Offline EdLee
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Post #17 Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:36 pm 
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Redundant, thanks for your $0.02. This happens to be a clear-cut case for pros. :)
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Offline EdLee
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Post #18 Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:38 pm 
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mw42, thanks for the clarification. :) I'm happy to study this more with you.

(Unless otherwise noted, all the following discussion is about this specific board position, and not about Go in general.)

First re-direction of your thought process: do you want to live in sente or gote here?
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: 7k vs 7k: Where did I go wrong?
Post #19 Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:53 pm 
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Are you being vague about which pros you asked because you don't think it matters, or because you are protecting their privacy? At first I was mildly curious about who you asked, but this is now taking on the dimensions of a full-scale mystery! :D

(Not that I disagree with R7... sente rocks ofc.)
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Offline EdLee
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Post #20 Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:25 pm 
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jts, yes. :mrgreen:
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