I am curious to see if anyone agrees with me or has this same feeling when watching or reviewing games.


Whenever I watch or review a pro game or classic game as long as I stay with it move by move without breaking focus I have a feeling of where the next move will be. In pro games I find myself making the right next move maybe 4/10 times.

This is without calculation or thinking but rather intuition I guess.

Go is the most unusual game I have ever experienced in that I have never had this "feeling" of where the next move will be.

Is it just me or does anyone else "feel" the right move.

Maybe I am just a green behind the ears beginner or a loon, but I seriously feel what the next move will be.

Now my further question is... since this happens can it be strengthened by reviewing more games?

The obvious weakness i can identify is since there is no calculation there is no reason why to move in that place and you probably have to have a reason with an intuition to truly be strong.

I really enjoy reviewing the games though as it gives you a feeling of what the players are feeling, why they are making the moves they are making, and the reason why they are in the position they are in.

The best way I can describe the feeling: It is as if a story is being read to you, or a movie (that has the same plot that you have seen a million times before) and you know what the next part could be.

Could be a bad analogy idk... anyone else experience this or think this can be strengthened?


Thanks.

In a game like go there are so many possibilities it's clearly impossible to honestly consider every one during a game. Sometimes players like to use "intuition", or "feel", or "sense of shape", or whatever you want to call it, as a means they use for selecting a handful of candidate moves from the literally hundreds of possibilities. The ability to select strong candidate moves quickly is important, and worth developing. At the end of the day however, it still isn't a direct substitute for actual calculation. Every good intuitive move always comes with he caveat of "so long as it works". Knowing if the move actually works tactically will come down to reading the position.

Regarding your practice - it's not uncommon for players to play through pro games to get a feel for how the game flows, where the big points are in a certain position, and what are "natural" ways to defend certain shapes. How much value you think you derive from this is of course going to be a personal thing you will have to experiment with, and at the end of the day might largely come down to this: Do you enjoy it? If you enjoy playing through games like that, by all means continue, even if you aren't sure if it's making you stronger.

IMHO you should not watch pro games at your level (if your 25/30kyu is correct), its just useless.
If I watch a pro game I cannot understand even 4/10 moves, let alone predict them.
You might have the "feeling" that you can "predict" them but most likely you are just recalling them from memory of previously seeing the pattern.

If you want to get rid of the 25/30k then just study life and death and play games is my advice.

When I was 12kyu kgs or so I tried studying some shusaku games and I thought it was really easy to follow... But then after a while you start realising that this single move actualy was weighted against lots of other really good moves that were read out really deep. And what we see on that board is realy just shallow projection of what goes on in the pro's head. When I started realising this I stopped because you can see that there is no point to watch these games unless you have the reading power to back you up on understanding the real depth of the game. Of course if you do it just for fun then go ahead but if you play the "guess the next move" to improve I would say there are lots of better ways to get strong.

Cheers,
Otenki

Yea I understand what you mean. In my mind I am wondering if there is an "intuitive" next best move v.s. a calculated next best move.

Could there be two sides to the game where intuition is developed from the experience of the examination of going through or being apart of previous games? That is my question. I do not believe go is all about cold hard calculation as I am a chess player of 15 years. Go is different I have never previously watched a chess match and then was "feeling" like I knew the best next best move.

I also believe that in understanding your opponent, and knowing their style of play enhances your ability to know where they may play next. This is not an ability of calculation.

Intuition largely comes from the bigger side of our mental capabilities which is the sub-conscious. You cannot tell me if you watched and played through pro games that you would not get a feeling of how things are done.

This is how learning is done... think about it... how do babies learn to walk? how do children learn to draw or color inside the lines? It is all based on the experience of doing.

How do children learn? By watching and then they imitate what they watch.

Aren't mentors a way of controlled imitation? This is why it is so important that the person who mentors
you need to have results because they are going to lead you down the same path they have walked.

So the common way of learning may be by cramming (and I am going to do this also), but the original intent of my question was asking everyone their opinion on the "feeling" of knowing the next best move, and then strengthening this ability through imitation of watching people's games.

Thanks for your responses.

Yes, a lot of people learn mostly by imitation.

Yilun Yang has a line in the introduction to one of his books. He talks about how all his life teaching go in China whenever he said "X is a good move" The studens all replied with "Yes, Sensei". But when he came to the states, when he said to one of his first students "This is a good move" The student asked why. And when he thought about it, he didnt really know why, he had just been told it was good, and agreed with the person who told him. He had never really thought about why the moves were good or bad.

completely disagree

I'm coming in after xed_over, but extremely disagree here. Watching pro games as part of what you do is a great way to get a feel for the flow of the game no matter what the level is. I think one of the best things Cho Chikun did in his introductory book to go is throw in a pro game to follow. You might not understand everything (and never will by the way), but it's useful.

Playing over pro games is a time honored method of getting strong. Since you like it and have pretty good results guessing the next play, I think that you can get a lot out of it.

May I suggest getting the latest GoGOD (Go Games On Disk) CD and use the Go Scorer software to guess the next play? Here is their URL: http://www.gogod.co.uk/

Good luck!

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Thanks I will check out GoGOD. I also do enjoy replaying games more because I believe some of the thinking of those playing will wipe off on me. The "pro" dust

Hopefully it will serve well in the future. But I am definitely not going to stop reading, and playing.

Just out of curiosity, when you say that you correctly guess 4/10 moves, are you talking about games you've never seen before, or games that you've reviewed several times? And do you keep up your 4/10 rate for the entire game, or just the beginning? And are you correctly guessing the general direction of play ("next white will play in the last empty corner"), or the exact point ("Wd16")?

Not that it matters much one way or another, it's just that under one reading your intuition is solid and under another, fantastic.

Every game that I watch is a new game. I have not got to the point that I have watched anything more than once (there is A LOT out there ). The 4/10 is mostly in the end of opening to mid of the game. I just watch at the beginning for it to progress to where the first contention is made, and that is when things get interesting.

If it is the beginning I have guessed correct moves, but it is nothing like 4/10 more like 1/10. In the end game I have never really thought about that so I am not sure.

Now about how specific it is...
In the mid game on a few of the misses I am still in the right general 3 intersection area of the move. When I am right it is directly on the spot that they move too.

I have only just discovered this, and that is why I asked about it thinking it was some type of skill that all go players had that can be developed. To be honest I am still exploring it, and hopefully after i have put some time in to test this out even more I will know for sure if it is a fluke or not.

You test it... open a game you have never saw before and don't think. Just watch them play the game. Watch how they are acting and placing the stones, and see if you can experience what I am.

I think what you're pointing to is that you're beginning to spot some of the basic forced sequences in Go, where each player has relatively little latitude. For example, an attachment or a shoulder hit; a pushing battle; a double hane; etc. This is definitely a sign of progress.

I was thinking about doing that, but recording where I predicted each move would end up being rather time consuming. I estimate I would get around 20%, but as you observe, many of those correct guesses would come in clumps of 75% or 80% around the most urgent sequences.

I also have been able to understand through observing how pro's throughout the game seek to make lines, and connect. Before from what I had learned from online guides was only the three basic rules, making two eyes, and how to kill a stone. Little did I know how important it is to make connection and lines to make life. It seems so much emphasis was put on making two eyes... making two eyes that i almost assume life was only in two eyes, but life is also in the connection of stones because the greater the connection the greater the liberties.

This very basic principle would have eluded me for a very long time without observing how pros play.

Isolated stones = death
Connected stones = life

Anyway I agree with what you are saying... but there are other moments outside of fights, pushes, etc... that the feeling is there of what you would do, and then what you think the pro will. Sometimes you are right and most of the time wrong. The way I hope to work on it, and how i see it is to adjust your choice to fit the pro's choice. See how his play is better and then ask why he made it.

That is what I have been trying to do without a board, and just in my mind while watching.

That all sounds very good. Are you sure you're merely 25k? The reason why Otenki repeated the (fairly standard) caution that studying pro games isn't usually the fastest way for beginners to improve: in general it's quite hard to spot cuts, connections, life, and death. If you see the the cut, then when you see the pro connect you have learned something (both about how to connect, and about when to connect). But if you don't see the cut, you're likely to think he was trying to make territory in the center, or something like that. Or you might think he's trying to connect, when in fact he's attacking - and so on.

I'll often study a pro game extensively before looking at the commentary, and I'm often surprised by how badly I misunderstood the purpose of specific moves. (Well, surprised is the wrong word. I now expect to be shocked.)

I have to disagree with this too, but only somewhat...

I think its debatable, and you're probably right, that there may be faster ways to improve.
And I think you are correct that we may attribute mistaken reasons for various moves.

But I still think that studying (or at least playing through) pro games is a good way for beginners to improve. And I think its far easier to later correct mistaken reasoning for good moves than it is to later correct habitual bad moves.

There may be faster ways to improve, but the question is will the experience from reviewing these games have some other side benefit such as remembering shapes, remembering past instances of situations that are similar...

Just my thoughts anyway that is why I enjoy watching pro games I feel as if they are taking me with them into battle. It is like being next to the Military Commander as the war is going on (except from both sides).

To be honest I am not sure what rating I am. I have only ever played free games, and when I first found Go a few months ago I pushed myself to my limits to try and figure it out really fast, and to understand it. I then read an online document that talked about being careful to not create bad habits, because once created they are amazingly hard to break in go. After getting constantly whooped (out of my very very few games) I took a break for a few months while watching pro games, and hikaru no go... its a good anime love how it shows the go world through the eyes of a beginner, Insei, and professional player. the reason I took a break is to first figure out what i wanted to achieve, and then work up to doing it.

So now I have board/stones coming, and a book (can't wait for my board and stone to get here)
Board:(like this one) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Go-Game-Board-One-Piece-Solid-Wood-/230859117253?_trksid=p4340.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D11%26meid%3D2465770607547752978%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D1005%26rk%3D1%26sd%3D230858372070%26
Stones:http://www.amazon.com/Glass-Go-Stones-JangStone-No-2/dp/B000E4BASS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1348952961&sr=8-1&keywords=8.5mm+go+stones
Book: GO A Complete Introduction To The Game By Cho Chikun

Almost time to get to work!

But yea... I am just guessing at my rating just wanted to put something even if I am unsure of its accuracy.

From just a single personal anecdote... I improved from DDK to SDK, a range of about 4 stones, in only a few month's time, mostly from only memorizing (playing through) pro games and game recording amateur high dan games.

I don't do that as often as I used to do anymore, but from my own personal experience, I still believe its an effective method.

Yes, yes, I think we're on the same page. I think we were both on record in a recent thread as saying that the best way to study is going to differ a lot from person to person based on their aptitudes, what they enjoy, and so on. But certainly the pay-off of pro games relative to alternatives changes as you get stronger.

I guess you could take the same attitude to watching 4-dans blitz each others' brains out on KGS, right? Probably not the best way for beginners to improve, but markedly better than playing tennis.

Uzziel: your attitude towards your rank (not caring) and bad habits (not wanting) are both commendable! Have you checked out the ASR league on KGS? I haven't taken part in it for a while, but it is a great way to get lots of intense, unranked games.