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 Post subject: Re: Reviewing games - intuition?
Post #21 Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:27 pm 
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jts wrote:
xed_over wrote:
jts wrote:
The reason why Otenki repeated the (fairly standard) caution that studying pro games isn't usually the fastest way for beginners to improve:

I have to disagree with this too, but only somewhat...

I think its debatable, and you're probably right, that there may be faster ways to improve.
And I think you are correct that we may attribute mistaken reasons for various moves.

But I still think that studying (or at least playing through) pro games is a good way for beginners to improve. And I think its far easier to later correct mistaken reasoning for good moves than it is to later correct habitual bad moves.

Yes, yes, I think we're on the same page. I think we were both on record in a recent thread as saying that the best way to study is going to differ a lot from person to person based on their aptitudes, what they enjoy, and so on. But certainly the pay-off of pro games relative to alternatives changes as you get stronger.

I guess you could take the same attitude to watching 4-dans blitz each others' brains out on KGS, right? Probably not the best way for beginners to improve, but markedly better than playing tennis.

Uzziel: your attitude towards your rank (not caring) and bad habits (not wanting) are both commendable! Have you checked out the ASR league on KGS? I haven't taken part in it for a while, but it is a great way to get lots of intense, unranked games.



I have looked at the Advanced Study Room (had it suggested to me in another thread). I searched for online administrators to get in for October but was unable to find any in order to register.

I will probably have to try for next month.

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 Post subject: Re: Reviewing games - intuition?
Post #22 Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:37 pm 
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They normally don't stop registration on the first of the month... that's only a deadline for getting seeded into a stronger division if you're dan-level. (Or at least, that's how it used to be.)

You should try daal... I think daal's signature says he's an admin.

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 Post subject: Re: Reviewing games - intuition?
Post #23 Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:09 pm 
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jts wrote:
They normally don't stop registration on the first of the month... that's only a deadline for getting seeded into a stronger division if you're dan-level. (Or at least, that's how it used to be.)

You should try daal... I think daal's signature says he's an admin.


I will get on and see if he is there. Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Reviewing games - intuition?
Post #24 Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:02 pm 
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This thread inspired me to try guessing my way through the first 100 moves of a pro game:



I was able to hit 41% of the moves on the first guess, which is better than I thought I would do. If I let myself try multiple guesses (up to 4) I found 73% . The moves are all there if you want to see what I was thinking.


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 Post subject: Re: Reviewing games - intuition?
Post #25 Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:25 pm 
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Nice job on getting 41%! Next time, though, you need to toughen up and make it through the ko fight. :rambo:

Moves like c18 in pro games frequently befuddle me. (a) It's a threat I never would have thought of. (b) The opponent doesn't reply. (c) Neither player touches it for another 50 moves. My only guess is that the threat of d18 effectively prevented B from fighting fiercely on the top side. (Plus, it has big follow-ups for both sides.)

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 Post subject: Re: Reviewing games - intuition?
Post #26 Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:21 pm 
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Also I completely missed both the distant 3-4 approaches. I guess I don't play them enough in games.

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 Post subject: Re: Reviewing games - intuition?
Post #27 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:21 am 
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emeraldemon wrote:
Also I completely missed both the distant 3-4 approaches. I guess I don't play them enough in games.



Maybe it is not that you do not play them enough, and it is instead that you have not seen them played enough.

Could be both too :P

Congrats on the successful test :)

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 Post subject: Re: Reviewing games - intuition?
Post #28 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:07 am 
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I then read an online document that talked about being careful to not create bad habits, because once created they are amazingly hard to break in go. After getting constantly whooped :D (out of my very very few games) I took a break for a few months while watching pro games,


Every autodidactic community I have ever been part of has warnings against creating bad habits, and it's true that they can be quite hard to get rid of, but I think the difficulty is somewhat exaggerated and the warnings do more harm than good. It's pretty common to see people not advancing because they want to avoid creating problems that are to fix later, but this is a big mistake. It is impossible to get better at go without picking up some bad habits, but all you have to do to get rid of those bad habits is concentrate on not doing them. The main reason bad habits persist is not because breaking them is harder than learning to do it right first time (I actually think it might be easier), but because breaking them is now competing with not breaking them, which takes no effort whatsoever. It's hard to think of a quicker and more reliable way to improve than correcting your bad habits. They get a bad rep, but I'm always happy to see one.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that if you have the dedication to improve, there's nothing you can do now that will stop you, and if you don't it won't matter anyway, so you might as well just have fun playing go.


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 Post subject: Re: Reviewing games - intuition?
Post #29 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:40 am 
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Splatted wrote:
Quote:
I then read an online document that talked about being careful to not create bad habits, because once created they are amazingly hard to break in go. After getting constantly whooped :D (out of my very very few games) I took a break for a few months while watching pro games,


Every autodidactic community I have ever been part of has warnings against creating bad habits, and it's true that they can be quite hard to get rid of, but I think the difficulty is somewhat exaggerated and the warnings do more harm than good. It's pretty common to see people not advancing because they want to avoid creating problems that are to fix later, but this is a big mistake. It is impossible to get better at go without picking up some bad habits, but all you have to do to get rid of those bad habits is concentrate on not doing them. The main reason bad habits persist is not because breaking them is harder than learning to do it right first time (I actually think it might be easier), but because breaking them is now competing with not breaking them, which takes no effort whatsoever. It's hard to think of a quicker and more reliable way to improve than correcting your bad habits. They get a bad rep, but I'm always happy to see one.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that if you have the dedication to improve, there's nothing you can do now that will stop you, and if you don't it won't matter anyway, so you might as well just have fun playing go.



The webpage I was reading from was owned by a go coach. He specifically said that beginner's are very impressionable and that bad habits will make the difference between someone who becomes a dan level player fast or painfully slow.

I was just being cautious I am not going to be that way anymore now that I am dealing with more than just learning by playing.

I agree with you though.

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 Post subject: Re: Reviewing games - intuition?
Post #30 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:49 am 
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Maybe the distinction to make is between bad habits you can pick up while playing/practicing, and bad habits you can get by putting too much faith in an over-enthusiastic amateur teacher.

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 Post subject: Re: Reviewing games - intuition?
Post #31 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:55 am 
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jts wrote:
Maybe the distinction to make is between bad habits you can pick up while playing/practicing, and bad habits you can get by putting too much faith in an over-enthusiastic amateur teacher.


http://kazsensei.seesaa.net/article/103871789.html
Quote:
In fact, in Japan a majority of people love to play Go without
studying Go.

Sadly, many of them don't even pay
attention to basic shapes and tesuji.

And often they love to kill stones...

They are only interested in killing stones and win a game
in their local Go clubs.

(From my point of views, they just love to abuse kyu players...
That's why Japanese Go (wéiqí, baduk) population has been
decreasing... That's part of the reasons, perhaps.)

I am sorry for those weak Go players whose stones are constantly
killed without realling learning any basics.

I am also sorry for those killers who will never become
stronger Go players...

Just killing weak players stones will make
no one stronger.

They just keep building their bad habits... bad habits of
common amateur mistakes.

Well...



http://www.kazsensei.com/

***Under frequently asked questions***

Quote:
Q. 15. I like playing games. I believe that playing games is the best way to
become strong. I couldn’t careless about your problems.

Answer: I know that many people say that playing as many games as possible is the best way to become a strong go player. I'm sorry to say, but I see this differently. Would you mind telling you my experience?

I have met so many Go players in Tokyo, who have just played thousands of games for many, many years without ever learning basics. Unfortunately, they ended up with their own style, which is full of common amateur mistakes. When they started taking my lessons and start learning basics, it was extremely difficult to get rid of the commen mistakes because such mistakes are ingrained deep in their mind for a long, long time. After years of my teaching, many of them couldn't get rid of them. Based on my experience of teaching more than a hundred adult Go players, acquiring basic foundations come first and foremost, and basics don’t come from just playing. I have more advice on my blog. Please take a look.

I'd like to add the following. The most amazing Go student of mine was a 73 year-old Go player who improved from 2 kyu to 1 dan in a half year. He only played 2 games in a week. Her is how he studied Go. How he did it 1 How he did it 2


:P

Quote:
Q. 19. How did you collect common amateur mistakes?

Answer: As a full-time Go teacher in Japan and on KGS, I have taught many amateur players from 29 kyu to 6 dan, from 7 years old to 78 years old for many years. During that time, I have collected many amateur games and examined common amateur mistakes. Based on them, I have made 250 texts to explain common mistakes and how to punish them as well as 250 tesuji texts. (I have a lot more problems in my head). In order to make those problems in my website, it will take me at least 3 years, and possibly 5 years.



Quote:
Kaz, a former Go insei and Tokyo regional Igo representative, is a world-renowned Weiqi teacher
.

He is known as the world-renowned Igo teacher and famous for his unique, flexible, and extremely kind teaching style.

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 Post subject: Re: Reviewing games - intuition?
Post #32 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:42 pm 
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Uzziel wrote:
Quote:
Kaz, a former Go insei and Tokyo regional Igo representative, is a world-renowned Weiqi teacher.

yes, Furuyama Kazunari is a well known and popular teacher. Frequent contributor to the AGA E-Journal. And sometimes posts Go related stuff on his Facebook page.

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