Right, but there is a difference. I can see if you weren't paying attention, but my misclicks as well as most people's are from the mouse, especially if you use a laptop like me, clicking when you didn't mean to.

As the opponent, getting into the mindset that you can still win from a misclick or luck when you are behind is bad, if you don't think you can outplay the opponent and don't have a chance just resign.

As the player, if you think wrong or play in the wrong order deal with it and learn from it. If you genuinely have a pc error then ask for an undo, and either resign or escape a game where the opponent refuses to undo a genuine misclick.

I think this is the right way to approach it. To not undo for a genuine computer only mistake, not a mis-think or lack of focus is just rude in my opinion, and is the same as the link I posted. Same token, asking for an undo when its not a misclick is like what you posted.

After reading the thread for the first time (I had just read the title and posted because of lack of time) I have to say I feel bad for many of you. You will never improve, you will be stuck at your level forever. Be that way if you wish. Thinking like "I get sulky when they ask for an undo and I think if I should ask for an undo" is a poor loser statement, showing you lack go spirit and will generally never improve. The true go player who studies hard, wants to improve, etc. is happy to give an undo to an opponents misclick because they want to play the best game they can. Winning a game due to a misclick leaves this kind of person edgy or upset until they get over it.


In my opinion that is why you see so many people who say "no misclick" etc around 5k-1k area, they get into this zone where winning is more important than learning and playing your best game, and that is why they will never improve. I flatly refuse to play an opponent who does not want to play the best game we can, the kind who would rather win on a misclick than lose but learn. I give undos for misclicks, and demand the same. If you have to ask "how can you tell it is a misclick" it means you arent very strong, usually you can tell there are only 3-4 possible moves during midgame fighting, and if they do something stupid its a misclick. I have never had a bad experince with anyone asking me for undos, except in teaching games people want to review during the game and go from the best variation if we review during play, which is why I only review after the game now.


Like I said, if you get mad when you have to let the opponent undo because their computer messed up, you must be too focused on the win and therefore not be thinking about getting better enough, have fun staying at the same level. Asian cultures would of course allow for undo if misclick, althought many of them wouldn't ask for one That is part of their strength.

@NoSkill:

On Tygem and WBaduk it's very rare for me to get an undo aside from a play on the second or first line on the first or second moves, and I make obvious misclicks a lot.

What is it that's causing all these misclicks? Bad trackpad settings? Glitchy client? Itchy trigger finger?

With a mousepad like mine it just randomly clicks sometimes (the blue ball in the center of the keyboard is really annoying as well for misclicks...)

Also if you check another window like me, you end up misclicking too sometimes. Just mousepad errors mostly.. or people on phones.

On a pc... it might happen but not as much

I've had this happen a few times. It does seem strange. I think I've posted in the KGS forum asking for some sort of pass confirmation for the android app.
Most times this happened I asked for an undo and it was granted, but once it wasn't. This annoyed me a lot. When is a pass in the middle of a game anything other than a misclick?

I usually don't ask for undos, unless it is a game critical misclick. I'm not offended if my opponent denies them, except for that mispass case.

As for granting, I'm usually more lenient, I allow almost all undos unless my opponent keeps requesting too many. I don't even think in the case of obvious misclicks, those I grant automatically.

Then again, I never play blitz, or anything under 20 min + 3*30s.

_________________
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
Associação Portuguesa de Go

I think this is the big difference in your perspective. If someone played an across the board ladder that doesn't work, and then wanted to undo the whole ladder, would you allow it? It is clearly "something stupid" by that player.

If you wouldn't allow it then, would you allow it if he asked after continuing for two moves? Would you allow it if they weren't two consecutive moves? Would you ask for an undo in the above cases?
I don't think it is as clear cut as you put it, and find your comments are slightly(at least) insulting towards those that don't like to grant undos.

One thing is to undo something in a teaching match, another to do so in a competitive one.



I disabled my trackpad's tap to click a long time ago because of misclicks. I think this was even before playing on KGS. It's too annoying to be moving the cursor and have it click something that wasn't intended.

_________________
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
Associação Portuguesa de Go

You aren't thinking correctly. The argument about playing out a whole sequence and then asking for an undo is not even valid. We are talking about undoing a MISCLICK. Not like a whole sequence, obviously noone would allow an undo for that.

All my comments assume it was one move and the undo was requested directly after that move. I believe if it is requested before they play another move, the other player should have to allow the undo unless it looks like a misthink, which is very rare. Like I said, noone has ever asked me for an undo that I didn't give them, because I believe everyone is honest.

To not allow an undo for a misclick is insulting and I usually escape or resign and leave, if you can't trust the other player or want a cheap win go play someone else.

I like to think everyone is honest too, like if they agree to play a game, they will make every effort to finish it, and not escape.

Yes I give undos for obvious misclicks. That is why I NEVER ask for them. If a misclick is obvious, and I or my opponent says "whoops" or whatever, then it would be nice if the opponent performed an undo.

But I never ask, because, clearly, the judge for what is a misclick has to be the opponent, not the misclicker. And there is no question in my mind that people have lied to me online about there atari being a misclick when they failed to notice they were in atari themselves.

And I agree - if you are playing 10 seconds a move - in the zone - it is a huge disadvantage if your opponent can be careless with his mouse, and break your concentration with the request. And arguments that someone is trying to win cheap in blitz are absurd - the whole exercise is simply an exercise and should not be taken seriously (or rated in my opinion).

To me, asking for an undo is offputting, particularly if it is unclear, but regardless - it breaks the mood. Its like the rule that a player hit the clock with the same hand. I have played a long time, and the rule is ingrained in me. Obviously, in a face to face blitz game or in byo yomi it is an important rule. But at the beginning of a 2 hour per player game it is not important at all. BUT - everytime you do it wrong - I notice and I am distracted. Having to think about whether it was really a misclick or a typo is not what I intended to think about when I agree to play with someone.

For me this is part of the problem with "misclicks". NoSkill's argument seems to be that misclicks are somehow an unavoidable part of internet go, but I don't think that's true. If you care enough to want good games online, you can care enough to have mouse settings that don't misclick.

Also I think hovering the mouse over intersections is a bad habit; it encourages misclicks and tempts you to play before you've thought out the move. To me a misclick is almost like a real life opponent grabbing a stone from the bowl and hovering his hand over the board while he thinks. If he then occasionally drops the stone onto the board at the wrong place, would you accept it as a necessary part of go?

I never play on mobile devices, so I can't speak to the difficulty of input there. But if it caused me to misclick, I don't think I would do it.

This sounds suspiciously like "go home, noobs". Trackpads are often terrible. Settings are often opaque.

I'm technically savvy enough to both run Linux and to reconfigure my trackpad, and my opinion is that it is a very Bad Thing (tm) that anyone should ever have to do what I had to do.

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Occupy Babel!

Fair enough. Personally I have a cheap USB mouse I keep with my laptop for times when a trackpad would be annoying. I've also disabled tap-click on my trackpad like Phelan, and for the same reason. But I write code for a living, so it's very possible I'm underestimating the difficulty of these things for a typical go player.

I don't mind giving undos for misclicks, either: it's typically obvious because the undo request comes instantly after the move. I just feel like if I'm misclicking, that's a problem with my computer setup that I should fix. Again, maybe that's my programmer attitude showing.

It is just my opinion that if you try to win by means other than playing better you are a low-life. In my mind if you even think "was that really a misclick" or "did he really lie" you are unconfident in your own ability to win and are never going to improve. Like I said, those who don't grand misclicks are weak and I feel like I would have no problem beating them no matter how strong they are, if they think of go as some sort of sport where you try to take advantage of a technicality to win.

In my mind someone asks me for an undo right after they move I grant it, then if I even start to think "was it really a misclick" I remind myself "So what you are trying to win from a mouse mistake or even their misread and you aren't strong enough to beat them without them making a mistake? Then you should have just resigned if you needed them to mess up"

Plain and simple. I see no difference between marking alive stones dead at the end trying to get them to click done in order to win and not undoing a misclick. Both are trying to win based off the opponent being careless or misclicking. i would also throw in playing bad moves waiting for the opponent to make a misread or mistake and die when you are 50 points behind in this boat, you people who do this are nothing and I would love to play you anyday to boost my rank.

Fair players will always win, and if you have to ask if allowing an undo for a misclick is fair then you obviously need to reconsider your priorities in go.

I only partially agree with this, but that's not really my point.

I'm not talking about whether or not you should allow the other player to undo a move. I'm talking about whether you, yourself, should be making moves that need undos.

You seem to have a very strong opinion about having the right attitude when playing a game. Does that attitude not extend to how you physically place the stones? There is a seriousness to placing stones in good go games. When you play a move that has to be taken back, I think you are reducing that seriousness. Maybe it's not a lot, maybe it doesn't matter, but I personally am going to try very hard not to put a stone on the wrong intersection, even if it's "just" playing online.

If you see no difference between a player simply responding to where someone played and someone intentionially marking live stones dead then I am pretty sure there is no point talking to you.

It is interesting how you can impart all manner of bad character traits upon those who do not want to grant undos, yet at the same time it is not allowed to suggest any ill motive from those who do. Perhaps these saint like individuals should be turning water into wine or bringing world peace. Perhaps, in their perfection, that is what they are doing when they escape in a huff.

No it is just when you are playing you should not be thinking about anything but playing the best game you can, if you think about winning by time, a misclick, or some technicality you don't deserve to play go and should not even be allowed. As a player I don't see a problem asking for an undo when the misclick was purely mechanical on your side, computer error etc. Now if you misread or misthink, etc and ask for an undo you are worse than the person who doesn't allow misclicks. Gladly I have never seen even one person do that.

As I said, I would grant a misclick unless you are pretty sure the other person is lieing about the misclick, and even then I usually just allow it. No biggie. I think it is rude to now allow an undo for an especially obvious misclick, and that this breaks the agreement of playing a game. At this point I find it fine to leave the game and not finish it IE escape, or resign and tell the opponent if you want a win that badly have one. Asking for undo when it is a genuine misclick I also see no reason to doubt, if you have to ask whether you should ask for an undo when you misclick you are also thinking about the game too much as winning and not enough about getting better and having good spirit.


It would rather be like being in the fourth quarter of a football game and getting beat, but then pointing out the other player had illegal cleats or the helemt wasnt on all the way to take back the play. Do you know what most people would say to that? "Grow up you lost fair and square by skill". I have the same attitude towards those who try to point out basically that someone didn't program their laptop or mouse perfectly.

Everyone here has misclicked at some point, it would NOT happen in real life, and in that token it should be allowed to be undone.








For emerald: Yes it is respectful to as well place your stones correctly, but sometimes you have to check other windows quickly or you have a laptop or the dog bumps you etc. I think it is not good to just play really fast and make misclicks all the time, but it is more important to allow undos in my opinion. When you play go the attitude is to play your best, the opponent plays their best.. the best one wins you can review get stronger,help each other etc. If you are only trying to win regardless you will end up just playing trick plays, time suji, waiting for mistakes etc... which makes you a really weak person and will make you only weaker when you play someone strong.

Mostly I think people who ask for misclicks are people who have trouble admitting that they're not perfect. I can go through three dozen games without ever having one opponent ask for an undo. Plenty of blunders and mistakes and eye-rolling, on both sides, but no one asking for an undo. Sometimes i offer it, for big mistakes, and its almost never accepted. I don't think I, or my opponents, would ever think about winning through an undo, because it's so rare that people ask for them. Then one opponent in forty will pester me with undo, undo, undo.

I'm not saying you have bad manners, noskill - it sounds like you're just unusually clumsy, a position I sympathize with a great deal - but most people who ask for undos are bratty nutcases. Actual misclicks are rare.

I get asked for an undo for a misclick that is rather obvious 1/10 games, and I ask for them whenever I misclick.

Everyone here misclicks, and like I said I don't see any problem with it. I think a lot of you guys are either paranoid or play vs some really bad players, I have never had anyone try to ask for undo undo undo. They only ask for one, right after they play, and its pretty obvious a misclick.

Maybe I just have good karma and you guys are a little less lucky in terms of getting these rude people

Here is my comparsion to a misclick in real life. You are at a go club or tournament playing someone in real life, and they reach into their bowl, as they pick up the stone and go to play, a stone flys out of their bowl and bounces onto the board. What happens?

"Woops sorry *grabs stone*" then it continues from where it was. That is like an undo for a misclick. To insist they must flip the stone over and put it on the closest intersection as their move is not undoing for a misclick.

Now.... what do you think happens in reality?

Do you know what a Straw Man argument is? That's what you're doing.

We've said repeatedly that we've encountered people that ask for multiple undos, in very questionable situations. Hence why some of us don't like to always grant undos automatically.

Yet you keep representing us as if we think about any undo request (even one asked immediately like a failing to get out of atari by playing one intersection too far) as something shady.

If it never happened to you, good, but if you want to discuss this seriously, you need to get off your high horse and admit other realities. There are situations where you wouldn't grant undo, as you admitted. Why wouldn't others define that point at which they won't grant an undo differently?

_________________
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
Associação Portuguesa de Go