Since I am moving to London soon, I started to worry about the many people who keep saying that the English speaking Go world is in miserable shape (worldwide). So what do you say, is it decline, stagnation or growth? And if the answer is decline or stagnation, why is this the case and who is to blame?

Everyone (but me!) is to blame!

In all honesty, I don't have a good insight into the "current state" of things. I don't even attend the local club (timing, scheduling, <excuse 2>, <excuse 3>, ..., <excuse n+1>).

Sites like this forum give me good hope for what is going on, though. This is an active community, we're friendly, inviting, and encourage new members (as well as old) to participate - tournaments, Malkovich, ASR, etc.

Being an American, I'm also very interested to see how the AGA proceeds. I actually paid more attention to the recent AGA elections, and feel good about the direction of the association.

Just my 2(++) cents.

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KGS: schultz [?].

Depends where you live really. I think overall there is a decline, but some areas are very healthy.
The scene is London is much better than it has been in the recent past, by all accounts.

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North Lecale

Probably in decline since the English Go world is tightly linked to the Japanese go world, which is also in decline.

Where I live, it's a steady stagnation. Lose some, gain some. But what's kind of common: The players who stick with Go and become strong (at least around 1D) tend to decline. Most are active until mid-SDK and then lose interest.

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My "guide" to become stronger in Go

I think a lot of the apparent decline is because of the huge burst of interest that HnG created. Now that the buzz has worn off, things are settling down again to a more "natural" level. As long as that level is higher than the pre-HnG days the game will still be very healthy.

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Poka King of the south east.

I am not sure that Hikaru no Go will have any lasting effect on the go-playing population. How many young people did we see on Go Discussions or here or on the servers whose nicks were Sai, Hikarusomething, or other names from the manga? How many young people declared they were going to become pros? Where have all the flowers gone?

I do think there is growth in the English-speaking go world but it is on servers, not in face-to-face go clubs or tournaments. The English-speaking world includes a lot of Europeans and Asians, not just North Americans and Brits. One way to see the growth is to look at how many servers there are with Western clientele. Not so long ago there was only IGS and the defiant NNGS which was too small to count seriously.

If only one in a hundred of those people actually stuck with the game (maybe changing their handles to something less fanboyish) then that's still a gain.

On reflection, I think in today's "instant gratification" culture it's hard for a game like go to take hold. The stones don't move once placed and all the stones are the same, which at first glance can seem static and monotonous when compared with a game like chess, where the pieces all have different abilities and can move. You don't really appreciate a good running battle in go until you've gained some experience with the game. Many of us westerners think a movie is boring if it's not continually punctuated by explosions, or if individual camera shots go on for more than a few seconds. How tedious will a two hour game of go be?

On top of that, go has a wicked steep learning curve. You've got to put some effort into becoming good enough at the game to enjoy playing it. To begin with you will feel stupid and inadequate as you try and fail to make even a single living group, which will not appeal to people who expect a game to give them instant rewards and continual encouragement. The fact is that the rewards are more subtle and beautiful because they are hard to achieve, but it's hard to convince beginners of that. It's understandable if people give it up at the first hurdle.

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Poka King of the south east.

"Tightly linked" is a weasel word--it invites you to think that there's some sort of connection, without in any way saying what kind of connection and why it's relevant. Go in Japan is struggling because it is coming to be perceived as a game for old folks, and is less popular with the youth. Now, what link is there between the US and Japan that would imply that things are going the same way in the US?

(Counter claim that's meaningless: with the new pro system, go in the US is becoming tightly connected to Korea, so it must be booming).

P.S. As to the original question, things look to be in rough stasis in my neck of the woods.

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Occupy Babel!

For a second I thought you said that English-speaking go players are in miserable shape, which is another discussion altogether...

It's not an easy question to answer, I think. For the most part, we can only speak anecdotally.

Here in Mississippi, a few of us are committed to introducing new people to the game, making sure at least one local store actually sells basic equipment, etc. Having only recently taken up the game myself, I've already introduced a few people to it.

If one or two people in a city/town here and there will kick off local Go clubs, the game will spread. Slowly, but it will spread.

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Central Mississippi Go Club
http://www.cmgo.org

In the heart of Mississippi, I'm teaching about 1-2 people a month, on average. So...we're booming!

Also, if the experience of new people is struggle and difficulty, then I would suggest there's a better way. With the handicap system, everyone should be winning about 50% of their games. If you're a stronger player playing a weaker player, and you win constantly, then shame on you . You should be giving more handicap stones and losing about half your games to beginners.

I remember an early experience where a player 10 stones my senior gave me 5 stones. He crushed me and my soul. Another experience where I played a dan-level player and he gave me 13 stones and he won, then 25 stones and I won. I still talk excitedly about that day 8 months later. Beginner does not have to be struggle and difficulty.

Even better are two beginners playing each other. If someone wins three in a row, then they lose a handicap stone to their opponent. It's not that hard to ensure people are winning half the time.

When we do this, people naturally see the beauty and subtlety of the game, just like I have at each level of play over the past year. There *is* instant gratification if you allow it. And, as the stronger player, I would suggest is our duty when teaching.

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Founder, Central Mississippi Go Club
Free tips and resources for clubs and teaching
Go Kit Club Pack - pack of 13x13 go sets for clubs
Go Tin - very portable go

I don't care much about what happens on go servers. I am just as happy to click my wbaduk standard greetings - no real need to share a language at all as long as there is a client. Though is the population of players on servers from the EsGw (English speaking Go world) really growing? Is there even a single indicator that shows growth in English language Go activity?

I used to answer "but look to Russia, Turkey, Germany etc. - no decline there" to questions like the one I posted, but while there really is no decline there and many of the players in these countries may speak English as second or third language, they won't organize clubs / tournaments in the UK, US etc.

P.S. I know some of us love to discuss about Japan and Korea, but why oh why in a thread titled "English speaking Go world"?

In my experience many beginners are offended at the idea of taking very large handicaps. I think the most important thing is identifying the personality of the person you are teaching and doing what they want to do. Some people don't mind losing over and over again if they are naturally persistent. I would personally feel miserable giving anybody 13 or 25 stones no matter what the rank difference was, as I simply could not enjoy such an experience.

Very good points. I agree on assessing the personality of your opponent. On the large number of stones handicap, I felt great in receiving, and the much stronger player had no problem giving them to me. It was a great experience for me. And he said he did, too. It was clear it was in the midst of a series of teaching games, but he also refrained from helping me during those games.

I do have one opponent who is insistent on not receiving a handicap, but he comes back for more punishment each time. We've played maybe 20 games or so, but it's on a 13x13 so it's not a huge time expense for him and it's over quickly. The important factors are that he doesn't accept the handicap AND he comes back. When I play an opponent, I almost always offer a handicap game and most of my opponents take me up on the offer, whether they are stronger or weaker. If we guess wrong, we adjust the handicap for the next game. Once we settle in over a couple of games, we informally follow the three in a row rule.

Perhaps this is off topic. Sorry for the thread-hijack...I'll post more when the topic is "teaching go"...but this applies when trying to spread the joy of go in the English-speaking populace. There, I brought it back around. Whew

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Founder, Central Mississippi Go Club
Free tips and resources for clubs and teaching
Go Kit Club Pack - pack of 13x13 go sets for clubs
Go Tin - very portable go

Rather than carry the woes of the whole English-speaking go world on your shoulders, just enjoy London. I think there are currently four weekly clubs in London that have dan players, and there are still over 30 tournaments a year - travel in the compact UK is generally easy and you can often share a car or accommodation if necessary. Meat-space activity is not what it was in pre-internet days, of course, but Brits are given to understatement, so you will find there is much more going on than they will shout about.

Like other visitors, you are also welcome to attend a GoGoD executive meeting if you are in central London of a Friday.

Almost everything above also applies to golf, but golf is much more popular. So it's something else.

Golf does have instant gratification though. You hit a ball with a stick, doesnt get much better then that

That's not what I found out the first time on the driving range.

Ed's right. Golf is mostly waiting and walking, but it's popular (for reasons that I can't quite understand).

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Occupy Babel!