Defending Against the press

SmoothOper · #1

What is the best way to defend against second line press

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It isn't joseki, so I can't look it up as such.

I generally push up.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 3 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Which leads to a running battle.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 3 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 4 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 3 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 4 6 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 7 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think black is in an inferior position after these, but the fighting is messy, any suggestions?

CnP · #2

Ok, my kyu-level 2 cents:

On http://eidogo.com/, Kogo gives this as the suggested next move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 2 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 3 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 4 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The mistake being that the stones aren't properly connected and black can come back and cut later at a (I think that's the point anyway), with one sequence on EidoGo given pushing up. If White goes back and reinforces the connection it's a wasted move for White, so perhaps play 6 as above then push and cut if required.

SmoothOper · #3

CnP wrote:

Ok, my kyu-level 2 cents:

On http://eidogo.com/, Kogo gives this as the suggested next move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 2 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 3 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 4 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The mistake being that the stones aren't properly connected and black can come back and cut later at a (I think that's the point anyway), with one sequence on EidoGo given pushing up. If White goes back and reinforces the connection it's a wasted move for White, so perhaps play 6 as above then push and cut if required.

Thanks, I like 3-5 push better.

logan · #4

SmoothOper wrote:

What is the best way to defend against second line press

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Pushing up once is most common.

When White has has developed some stones around either mark areas, then if :b2:

a push & cut from White will give him a tough fight for one or both of his groups:

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Therefore, when White pushes Black usually makes a light & loose jump. Then White takes sente to play elsewhere.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

When White continues to push Black can play this way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm3 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O 1 2 . e . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X b a . f . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There are a lot of continuations for White here (e.g. A-F). You should choose the one that fits into your gameplan.

White can also aim at the shape weakpoint, if the placement stone will work in conjunction with some other global plan White is pursuing.

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oren · #5

logan gave a nice description. daily joseki is also a useful site.

Joaz Banbeck · #6

Keep in mind that the territory of a stone on the second line is only one point per stone, but the influence of a third line stone is worth at least two points. So your first priority is to not continue such 2ndrank/3rdrank exchanges unless life requires it.

SmoothOper · #7

logan wrote:

When White has has developed some stones around either mark areas, then if :b2:

a push & cut from White will give him a tough fight for one or both of his groups:

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One of the severe variations I have seen is the black connection, I suppose,

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If I push then if black, fixes his connection, I just take an extra something like.

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Bill Spight · #8

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Alguien · #9

Is this playable?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 2 . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 3 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Dokuganryu · **#10**

Why play sansan if You don't want to be pressed low? The idea is to grab moderate amount of territory with one move, not to build influence or really anything more interesting.

SmoothOper · **#11**

Gorim wrote:

Why play sansan if You don't want to be pressed low? The idea is to grab moderate amount of territory with one move, not to build influence or really anything more interesting.

This question maybe beyond the scope of the thread, but san-san has some nice strategic properties, like being free from invasion.

Magicwand · **#12**

Alguien wrote:

Is this playable?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 2 . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 3 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

IMO, as an amature..yes.
as a professional..no.
IMO 5 is an overplay and white should push and cut.
also..8 appears to be an overplay.
why would you want your stones to go too close to the influence?
if black fixes the weakness as below..does 8 do anything other than provide target and let black fix his weakpoint?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 2 . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 3 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 4 . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Dokuganryu · **#13**

SmoothOper You didn't understand my question, I am fully aware about the advantages of sansan, but it seems You aren't aware that it has its disadvantages which should be taken into account and "accepted" the moment a player plays this move.

SmoothOper · **#14**

Gorim wrote:

SmoothOper You didn't understand my question, I am fully aware about the advantages of sansan, but it seems You aren't aware that it has its disadvantages which should be taken into account and "accepted" the moment a player plays this move.

The press as far as I am aware, is not a disadvantage of the san-san.

SmoothOper · **#15**

This way would ruin blacks influence.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X 2 8 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O 3 4 . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If black goes with the push.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X 2 8 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O 3 5 6 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 4 0 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

though blacks dragon is looking pretty impressive.

logan · **#16**

Proverb #213: Don't peep when you can cut.

Bill Spight · **#17**

logan wrote:

Proverb #213: Don't peep when you can cut.

More simply stated: Never peep.

:mrgreen:

Uberdude · **#18**

Gorim wrote:

SmoothOper You didn't understand my question, I am fully aware about the advantages of sansan, but it seems You aren't aware that it has its disadvantages which should be taken into account and "accepted" the moment a player plays this move.

The shoulder hit press at 4-4 must indeed be accepted, even often welcomed as locally speaking it is good for white (the shoulder-hit should be considered a special purpose approach against the 3-3 only for situations where moyos are important, I'm sure this has been mentioned by me and others on other threads before). But there is no reason you must accept being pressed down to the 2nd line by that move 5, which (unless there is a large amount of support nearby) looks like a pretty bad overplay and should be punished by pushing and cutting. If your mindset when faced with that move is on "defending" then you have already lost: it should be on "attacking".

SmoothOper · **#19**

Uberdude wrote:

pretty bad overplay and should be punished by pushing and cutting. If your mindset when faced with that move is on "defending" then you have already lost: it should be on "attacking".

I intentionally edited out the word punish, to give it a more calm sense, but yeah.

Alguien · **#20**

Magicwand wrote:

if black fixes the weakness as below..does 8 do anything other than provide target and let black fix his weakpoint?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 2 . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 3 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 4 . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'll try to remember to think more often about my stones as free targets.

My idea was to peep both cuts and cut where b doesn't defend. Now I see that my stone just gives a free move for b to fix one of the sides.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W The looks bad for w. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O 3 4 . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 5 6 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Defending Against the press

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