A very important point about jumping out when pincered, that I've not seen mentioned here, is that after white responds to help the corner stone, you must have a good move to play next. In the case of the one space low pincer, this is the shoulder hit press previously mentioned, as it presses white low and, very importantly, has a fairly decent connection back to the jump stone. I only say fairly decent as there is a cut at a which can get complicated (there are ladders involved and in fact this cut can be a strong move), but at least we can see that and are reasonably close together here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc One space low pincer jump and press - ok
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 4 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But now what happens if white plays the two space low pincer? Jump out now is not a joseki move and is likely bad, as after white helps the corner black has no good move: the same idea of shoulder hit press is too far away and weakly connected to the jump stone so is easily separated.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Two space low pincer jump and press - bad
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 4 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 2 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Same thing happens with three space low pincer. This is a general principle of looser pincers: they put less pressure on the approach stone as they are further away, but also by being further away they are less susceptible to counter attacks after the approach stone jumps out.

To add to the confusion (or not if you think about it carefully in terms of "after I jump out and he answer do I have a good move?), if white plays the two space high pincer, then jump out becomes a joseki move again because we can slide underneath it to make a base, which we can't with a 3rd line stone (N.B. to preempt the pedants these days this is often considered old joseki and good for white as black is low, also in terms of whole board thinking I don't really like this much for black).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Two space high pincer jump and press - ok
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 4 . O . 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 7 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This relates to the point that pushing through a small gap is generally stronger than pushing through a wider gap.



Indeed, the jump is not joseki and the above diagram is pretty bad for Black.

However:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Jump and cap
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . 7 . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 4 . O . . . |
$$ . . 8 . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 5 . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

is the natural follow-up to . Now if White responds with, say, , Black can approach with . This kind of sequence does appear in pro games, depending on the rest of the board.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

From the end of this joseki, how practical would it be for white to say, "I don't like your outward-facing wall, I am going to build my own one here to neutralise it."

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 1 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . 6 5 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . ? . . 4 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . 0 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Regards,

Peter

( My emphasis on joseki. ) Maybe we can rephrase as follows:
(1) W does not like this result; and (2) W wants to do something about it.
To me, (1) seems unreasonable, because when W pincered with , W knew this is a possible result.
(I'm assuming both B and W knew this standard sequence beforehand.)
If W does not like this result, then W should not have played (and and ) to begin with.

(3) So W must be OK with this result before deciding on (and and ).
Given (3), now it's more reasonable to modify (2) to:
(4) W has to keep an eye on the center, and to keep the balance so that B does not get too much because of it.
Which brings us to:
(5) How W goes about (4) -- the strategy and tactics -- this is further discussion. Maybe this is your real question.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 1 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Peter,

I think (1) is fair. Out of every joseki, you get features that you like, and features that you don't like. You win the game by effectively dealing with the features that you don't like.


Interesting. Most of these Malkovich games are beyond me, but here, I wonder if the single black stone on tengen worked too well with his wall, and if you had played on tengen first, it might have gone better?

_________________
Regards,

Peter

Just so we're clear:

If you are playing W,
(a) You think the result is equal for B and W (locally, anyway), but you still don't like B's wall.
(b) You think the result is better for B than W, (at least partially) because of B's wall, so you don't like it.

Your position is (a), and not (b) ?It was impossible for me to have taken tengen first after .

Yes: (a). I like my territory, but I don't like Black's wall. If I can find a way to neutralise that wall, I win .


Fair point. In another game...

_________________
Regards,

Peter

Not true. ( Because you may have to pay a price for that --
whatever costs you to deal with that wall is part of the value of that wall.
That was the deal: you agreed to take cash while B got what he got.
Thus the suggestion if W didn't like this result, W should've picked another variation to begin with.)
But I'll let other, wiser folks reply to your (a).

It is not that I dislike the result overall. I think it is well balanced. The fact that it is regularly played by stronger players confirms this.

Now, I know what I got from it: safe territory. That means black must have got something good from it: an outward-facing wall. If that particular feature of it is good for black, then it stands to reason that I don't like that particular feature.

It is also true that I don't understand much about black's result. It looks like he is poised to take a large area in the centre, which I know I will have to address at some point.

At my level, I can ask a question like, "Can white build a wall right in front of black's?" and there is a good chance that someone will reply with "No no no! You must approach it more gradually, from tengen" (or the opposite; who knows?). Even if there is no consensus on the exact best way to do that, at least I can avoid a strategic blunder that would make an SDK cringe.


Does anyone understand B's result?

_________________
Regards,

Peter

I think one of the interesting features of this joseki is that white didn't necessarily get much safe territory and black didn't necessarily get that great a wall. As in one of my earlier posts, black can still take the corner and can play forcing moves against the side group, but also white can wedge in to play a big cut in the wall that could lead to several other results!



This sounds like the classic misunderstanding of thickness. It's not there to take territory in the centre, although it might. The standard demonstration basically applies here; you need far more stones to secure territory in the centre compared to the side, so if that's your sole consideration you simply can't win that way.

The correct way to think about it and to play is that thickness give you power to play powerfully elsewhere. Your wall limits white's invasions on the bottom, as they might be attacked strongly if forced out towards it. It also helps your own invasions on the top, if white manages a small moyo or whatever then your wall helps via all the ladders and via making you powerful in the centre so that white cannot attack your invasion strongly without risking you cutting and attacking him instead.



Playing around tengen might be an okay sort of move if white has some strength of his own and so it borders two moyos. Or if black has a very big moyo, it might be a play on the moyo border point and so a big play for reduction.

But in general, the 'build a counter wall' idea is too simplified. A more general idea might be that you have to avoid the wall dominating somehow, but that might mean a range of actual goals, and (as in the discussion in this thread) what actually becomes reasonable will depend on what both players do.

All the way on the other side of the board you might choose to give up territory later in return for thickness that reduces the power of the wall and increases your chances of successfully invading deeply. Or you might judge that you can still grab more territory and give black more thickness, because you think you can still live in the moyo and make the walls inefficient. Even such completely opposite results like these might be possible, hinging on the choices both players make later, so don't lock yourself into thinking there is one true way to play against thickness.

There are a lot of things that might be reasonable, but I guess the big thing I'd advise based on this post is don't get completely worked up about the wall. The board's still pretty empty, there are big moves on the opposite side available. You shouldn't forget about it, it will affect what else you consider reasonable, but you don't have to suddenly veer your game plan directly to 'build another wall opposite it'.

As a side note, the general dictum to play away from thickness will likely apply here also. The closer white plays to that wall, the easier it is for black to cause him trouble or make those stones useless, because of that wall.

(Starting to repeat myself...) You decide to sell someone a shirt with a red button for $10.
You both agree it's a fair trade. You think the red button is good for that person and you don't like it.
I think this is being unreasonable.

As white:
- I like my territory
- I dislike black's wall

That is what I mean by "well balanced".

I can like something overall, without liking every part of it.

If I can then deal with the particular bit that I dislike, then I am even happier!

_________________
Regards,

Peter

Not necessarily. If you can neutralize the wall without making a tradeoff, that is to your advantage.

What is true is that territory is like money in the bank, while the territorial value of a wall is potential. In general, it does not come from using the wall to make territory. Therefore, "neutralizing the wall" by preventing territory in its vicinity does not necessarily prevent the wall from paying off.

Learning to make use of walls takes time and experience. So I recommend that beginners start gaining that experience as soon as possible.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

I've killed that wall before. However, it takes a lot of preparation and of course won't work if you go about it directly. The following diagram shows the sort of moves white needs to get as preparation. Obviously black shouldn't pass when white plays these, either gaining something elsewhere on the board, or else answering them more locally in which case white can probably be happy to be making some gains in sente. Then 1-3 are one way of attacking black's shape.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , W . . O . O W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 3 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

But anyway, a more useful thing to think about is what to do next after that wall joseki. First we need to understand what are black and white aiming at in the future? Learning joseki well is just as much about learning what things to do after the joseki as the joseki itself.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . e . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . c . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

The above diagram labels the various interesting areas for the future. Something important to note is that they are not isolated, but can affect each other:

a - black would like to connect here to make some thickness, keep r14 safe, and separate the white groups above and below; white would like to wedge in here to make some profit, cut off r14 and connect his groups above and below.
b - black would like to play here (or r7) to limit white's eyespace on the side (aims at s9 placement) and develop his lower right corner; likewise white wants to increase his eyespace here, stop getting sealed in and approach black's corner
c - black has made a wall on the right side and would like to play here to build a moyo, white would like to split the side (k3 rather than k4) to nip the moyo in the bud.
d - black would like to live in the corner, white to get the corner
e - black here is the classic play on 3rd line against a 4th line stone and if he has already got the connection at a then this move can attack white's corner. White can prevent this kind of move with a play at k17 or l16.
f - if white already has b then there is a cut here white might like to make, and black might want to defend.

So putting all these aims together, what would be a sensible way for both sides to continue? Well a and b are essentially miai so white's group is perfectly safe, thus it's reasonable to split black's moyo below c.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

White could also play on the side, but then black makes his moyo:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Continuing from the first variation, black would like to pressure the white group so connects at a and white jumps to b. Something to note is that if white doesn't play b black could play there and even though white can still live, it will be a miserable small life in which you have to make bad exchanges (e.g. p for q which helps black's corner, or r for s which weakens white's corner above as black can now jump to the 3-3 point and be connected) and black getting to seal in sente is very satisfying for him.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X s . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . r . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . p . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 q . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

But now that black got the connection at a in sente, the white group above is separated, so the move at e becomes powerful, and white moves out:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 6 . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

This is a natural flow of moves, with trading of miai points.

One variation I didn't show yet was white getting a, so to show that:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . e . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 5 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 6 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Something to note here is that black's move at e has become less interesting as, now that white has connected his groups through at 5, it is not attacking the corner, just destroying a little bit of territory. Also note that white's 5 makes it harder (but not impossible e.g. 5 as hanging connection for a ko) to invade at the 3-3 point as black can no longer get the 2nd line hane and connect in sente (the kill shown in the 2nd diagram is not totally clean, there is some bad aji outside):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Black's dream
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 5 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O 2 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

But see how white's stone at q14 takes a liberty white means black's cut at b doesn't work as white answers at c.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Wakey wakey!
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 6 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 1 5 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O 2 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X c . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Thinking about the future possibilities like this is what it truly means to study joseki.

Just a final point about this way of thinking. Black does not want to use his wall to make a few points in the centre, so playing a stone near it is rather pointless. Instead, black wants to use his wall to attack weak groups and make territory around the sides. So the way to neutralize the wall is to prevent black making those good moves round the sides. To illustrate here is a recent game of mine (I'm white):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 6 . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , 9 . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 0 . 6 . 4 O O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 5 1 X 2 . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 7 . . . . 3 9 X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . O O O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X X X O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . X . . . . X B X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . O 6 4 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

The move I want to to focus on is , which I think is a good move (a 5d agreed). The other thing I considered was defending my group at a, but I thought it wasn't actually so weak and that black had made a mistake by not ensuring he got sente to play at b soon after the marked connection. The move at b is a major way black can efficiently use his wall. By preventing that I neutralize his wall by building territory and making my groups strong, rather than playing dame in the centre of the board.

Let me second that.

When I started studying joseki, which was after I had been playing go for more than a year, the first book I bought was about deviations from joseki. The second one was about how to play after joseki.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

For me, one of the most mind opening things I had happen was that I played this simple joseki everyone learns soon as white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . 2 . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Later in the game, black attached to , and I was flabbergasted that a group I'd thought of as strong and solid could be torn apart so easily, even though black had played moves around it. It definitely made me question what I actually knew about joseki, and started me looking into them much more deeply, both in terms of variations and in follow ups.

Yes, (painful) experience and reviews are so vital. There are four ways to attach to --
I assume you meant ? ...and where were the additional surrounding B stones -- at (a) and/or (b) ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . 2 7 . 6 . b . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Can you explain that to a beginner? How can a wall in the centre help a stone some way off to the side?

Thank you.

_________________
Regards,

Peter