It is currently Sun May 04, 2025 2:43 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Shusaku vs Shuwa
Post #1 Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:01 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 87
Location: Munich, Germany
Liked others: 341
Was liked: 17
Rank: EGF 5kyu
Still studying "Invincible" I stumbled upon the following position in a two stone game against Shuwa:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm39
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 1 X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O , O . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now my question is, why does Black not just extend to the edge with :b40: ? If we continue just as in the game we get:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm40
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O , O . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This seems preferable for Black, since White's upper group has less eye shape and the threat for the corner is the same.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shusaku vs Shuwa
Post #2 Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:06 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 589
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 114
Rank: 2 dan
Black wants to prevent white connecting, and also wants sente.

Your suggested variation doesn't seem to be sente, as black doesn't actually have a followup to connect underneath - white could just answer a with b. Black does get b himself (or similar) to make the same threat whilst aiding his top group, but perhaps this is judged insufficient since white's atari lets him get away too easily and opens invasion points in that same top group.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm40
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O , O . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So my guess is that black considers getting the extension in the centre to be worth damaging his group on the top.


This post by amnal was liked by: Akura
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shusaku vs Shuwa
Post #3 Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:17 am 
Oza

Posts: 2495
Location: DC
Liked others: 157
Was liked: 443
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
amnal wrote:
Black wants to prevent white connecting, and also wants sente.

Your suggested variation doesn't seem to be sente, as black doesn't actually have a followup to connect underneath - white could just answer a with b. Black does get b himself (or similar) to make the same threat whilst aiding his top group, but perhaps this is judged insufficient since white's atari lets him get away too easily and opens invasion points in that same top group.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm40
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O , O . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So my guess is that black considers getting the extension in the centre to be worth damaging his group on the top.


My thought is that the descent does not threaten to connect to L17 or to wrap around the white group from the bottom. It also seems to increase the aji at O16 by limiting white's liberties more, though black still couldn't exploit it right away.


This post by skydyr was liked by: Akura
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shusaku vs Shuwa
Post #4 Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:53 am 
Judan

Posts: 6727
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 436
Was liked: 3720
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Another important question here is does the descent to p19 alter the status of the white corner group? The answer is no, but if black has p19, how would you answer black s14 to make sure the answer is still 'no'?


This post by Uberdude was liked by: Akura
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shusaku vs Shuwa
Post #5 Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:50 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 16
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 2
With a hanging connection ;-)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shusaku vs Shuwa
Post #6 Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:54 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 87
Location: Munich, Germany
Liked others: 341
Was liked: 17
Rank: EGF 5kyu
Thank you all - those are very good reasons.

@ Uberdude: I would play 'a'. Shusaku later played 'b':

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ----------
$$ X . . . . |
$$ X O O . . |
$$ X X O . . |
$$ . X O a b |
$$ . . X O . |
$$ . . X X . |[/go]


But that doesn't depend on whether :b40: hanes or extends, does it?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shusaku vs Shuwa
Post #7 Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:44 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1810
Liked others: 490
Was liked: 365
Rank: KGS 1-dan
http://senseis.xmp.net/?L2GroupWithDescent explains why the L+2 group is not unconditionally alive with this descent. Now there is the interesting Tsumego to figure out why the J+1 group remains unaffected ; )

_________________
My "guide" to become stronger in Go


This post by SoDesuNe was liked by: Akura
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Shusaku vs Shuwa
Post #8 Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:52 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 87
Location: Munich, Germany
Liked others: 341
Was liked: 17
Rank: EGF 5kyu
Aah, crap! Yet another reason, why I'm not the next Shusaku. Thank you for the link, SoDesuNe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group