I don't see any problem with this, because both players have the choice to participate in the bidding. If the "correct" komi against me is 10 points, the opponent has the opportunity to bid 10 points in the first place.

This is more fair than the current system.

Suppose we have the same example - let's say I have a 10 point advantage with black. Then whenever I play against someone at 7.5 komi, I'm automatically at an "advantage" and the opponent has no chance to change that. At least with the bidding system, the opponent can affect the bid.

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be immersed

Great idea. In a non-blind auction, one player is giving the other information by placing a bid. In a blind auction, this is fixed.

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be immersed

I agree this probably won't come to be widely used. But I don't think the stats argument really works that well. That's because the statistically calculated komi is a single number calculated from a group of professional players.

There exists the possibility that the "most fair" komi for two amateur 5k, for example, is a different number. At least with the komi pie, these two players could try to find this "fair" komi.

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be immersed

Blind auction could be really easy to implement online too. Just setting the komi, and letting the server pick before starting the game. In ties, the players could resort to guessing even or odd stones then alternate black white, or essentially pick randomly.

It would be interesting but things get tricky with different ranks, which IGS for example has a fairly accurate ranking system, which includes negative komi for a weaker player and stronger player of the same rank, though I have never liked that, since the games aren't as good but the ranking boost is large, which didn't seem fair negative komi and a large ratings boost.

The opportunity, yes, but not the knowledge. In a club or something, sure, but there are plenty of inventive and fun handicaps you can use with people you've played a hundred times before. The point is, in a tournament, when playing against people you've never played against before, it's not obviously any fairer than fixed komi is just because there's some choice involved - you're making choices based on insufficient knowledge.

1. Knowledge of what a good komi is for you is part of your strength.
2. You can always bid 6.5 or 7.5 komi if you have no idea about what's correct.

So I still feel that this method is at least as good as fixed komi, and more flexible (so a little bit better).

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be immersed

Yes, but it's a smaller part of your strength than the ability to accurately count (up to fractions) the value of various endgame plays. And we'd laugh if someone suggested that before the game we complete endgame quizzes and award points for the answer.

I think komi pie doesn't seem ridiculous on its face, but would actually be worse than an endgame quiz. It's pointless at best, a horrible distraction at worst.

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Occupy Babel!

Why do you think it's pointless? I don't think it's pointless.

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be immersed

Huh? As I said, the correct komi for a game between me and you depends on what a good komi is for me and what a good komi is for you. The game is, after all, between the two of us. Making a choice on what the best komi is based on insufficient information (aka guessing) doesn't seem particularly more useful or fairer than having it fixed.

Kirby, do you think we should have endgame quizzes before the game starts, and award points to the winner?

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Occupy Babel!

At my local club, we actually use "komi pie" almost every game.
Except we call it "auction komi."

First we do nigiri, then the winner chooses if they want to bid or choose the color.
It seems to work great for us and I find it enjoyable. To our knowledge, we haven't encountered any problems.
There is some fun in choosing a komi outside the norm like 2.5 or 10. Although, most the time we say 5.5 to 7.5.

Then again, we are all friends and play each other every week.
Maybe next time when there is a newcomer, I will try "auction komi" and see how it goes.

I also like the idea of "blind auction komi", i'll give that a shot as well.

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Time is never there.

This seems confuse 'komi', to compensate for the advantage of playing first, with 'handicap', to compensate for a difference in strength.

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Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

No, but what if 6.5 or 7.5 isn't the ideal komi for amateurs? Then someone is automatically at a disadvantage when they start the game with a given color.

With the komi rule, the bidder has the option to keep things the same and bid 6.5 or 7.5. But there's also flexibility to fix the inaccuracy of the komi if it hypothetically exists.

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be immersed

It may be difficult to know what a "good" komi is for amateurs. But at the very least, it can be as good as the current system with a bid of a "normal" komi.

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be immersed

Why? Having initiative by playing first is something that can affect the outcome of the game. It's not clear to me that this "initiative factor" is necessarily identical between pros and amateurs.

For example, let's say you take a 1000 5k games, and find out that, in 900 of them, black wins by playing first with a 7.5 komi. The komi doesn't seem correct for 5k - perhaps because "initiative" can mean a lot in 5k games.

It's unlikely to be exaggerated like this, but this is the general idea I am trying to get at.

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be immersed

In theory, if both players are sufficiently far from pro strength, komi should be less. IIRC, the results of European tournaments supports that idea. Komi for beginners should probably be around 3. Maybe komi for 4 kyus should be around 5. Similarly, the win rate for a one stone difference in skill should diminish as the skill level drops.

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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

The "correct" komi could even differ between the same two players of equal skill depending on the type of game they play. It seems quite plausible to me that in a moyo game with large territories the fair komi is larger than in a low-scoring game of many small fragmented territories.

If I understand this idea correctly, you would be expecting to see different winning rates by dan/kyu level at existing komi, e.g. kyu-level players win more as black at 6.5 komi than high dans, etc. The information is there in the hundreds of thousands of amateur games stored on servers like KGS. As soon as you get through the analysis please let us know your results. Absent that you have no general basis for cutting the pie other than either: the existing work/experience on komi that points to something very close to 6.5 points or some entirely personal experience with the person sitting across from you. The second, I would still claim is a consideration of handicap. The best description of any general claims regarding differences for kyu levels in the absense of some sort of analysis would be "pie in the sky", IMHO.

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Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

And with komi pie, we have the enjoyable task of following the estimates on the ideal komi for our rank!

If it's a problem, do the analysis, determine the optimal komi, convince the AGA and the EGF to change their events' komi for amateurs. Komi pie just makes us do busywork.

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Occupy Babel!

Well, that's the point, really - absense of information. The existing komi is there because of analysis of pro games as I understand it. Until we do an analysis of amateur games, we can't know what is correct - and the existing 7.5 is pie in the sky Hence, a flexible system like the pie rule at least does not restrict us to the pro-analysis-defined komi.

Like Bill said, maybe a lower komi is better like 3 or 4 or 5 for some ranks. Maybe if the pie rule were in place, I could bid this.

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be immersed