Lost in (pro) opening?

Uberdude · #1

I just lost this game on OGS (my first in just over 10 months, no 1 year win streak for me :sad:

) and am not sure where I lost it. I feel that black's lower right corner got too big and I never found an effective way to deal with it. This opening (diagram below) has been played professionally many times, but I wonder if it is actually good for black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Pro opening, but good for black? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O W . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I've noticed that in the last year or so Korean pros have been trying variations as white, such as below (4-4 or 3-4 in lower left makes some difference in how black approaches, but even with 3-4 he can avalanche to develop the lower side moyo).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Recent innovation $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Just to illustrate, here's Park Junghwan using this against Lee Changho in late 2012.

But back to my game, I've made some comments in the sgf:

Also for comparison, here's Takao Shinji losing against Choi Cheolhan with the same opening on the right and avalanche in the lower left, it diverges a bit later.

wineandgolover · #2

Cool problem. Please allow me to humbly offer my thoughts. (Sorry, I have no idea how to make the board images.)

I think the upper right is a reasonable joseki, but per your comments, it seems the focal point of the game becomes limiting or growing that moyo.

To me, your move at H3 feels wrong. How do you feel if black immediately plays L6 after H3? (Probably pushing at E8 first). L6 both attacks severely, and grows the moyo. Such a sweet move.

In the sample game you provided, white was also attacked on the bottom, but his struggles still reduced the moyo because he wasn't trapped inside. Hard, but playable.

In the game, I think black's approach at C14 wasn't urgent, and you should come out at E8 and K6. If he's not careful, his wall is as much a target as your group.

Bill Spight · #3

Well, at first glance White does appear to be overconcentrated in the top right. But maybe that's old fashioned thinking.

Joaz Banbeck · #4

Uberdude wrote:

Could allowing black to avalanche be a mistake?

Yes. Could be. :cool:

Black has a nice position in the lower right with lots of potential for expansion. To let black have influence facing that potential seems a recipe for trouble. I think that white would prefer that he have that influence himself.
I would have played 26 at F4 without thinking twice.

Move 36 at H3 looks tiny. Is B going there anytime soon if you don't? As white, I'd leave the potential of K4 and play E7 myself.

My first reaction to 62 is that it must be a misclick. But you read better than I, so I suppose you had your reasons.

drmwc · #5

Isn't move 66 too small? You take gote at a key point of the game. I'd either do something to stenghten the two stones at the bottom, or try to invade at this point.

Following B 67, I'd probably play at G14 in an effort to jusitfy 66, and argue that my 2 stones can take care of themselves. If you cut black here, the aji against the top right corner may become more effective.

Top left:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Idea $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 2 a . . . . $$ | . . . O . X . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . X 3 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$[/go]

Is there a case for this move with W 3 instead of blocking at 4? I B plays at 4, invading the top is easy because of the aji at a.

Uberdude · #6

wineandgolover wrote:

To me, your move at H3 feels wrong. How do you feel if black immediately plays L6 after H3? (Probably pushing at E8 first). L6 both attacks severely, and grows the moyo. Such a sweet move.

Yes, when I played h3 I was well aware it could be bad, but I had my reasons. If I jumped out I thought black would just jump with me, turning the lower right corner into a huge territory. Not sure if black would play 4 at m8 or tenuki (most likely to approach top left corner or e7). If white does get sente here I suppose I could be happy that k4 is not dead and I have sente to add a move in the top left. Another reason I played h3 is because black played the high checking extension at m4 I have m3 to make eyespace on the side and h3 works with this: if he'd played m3 instead I would have run. Also a downside of the jump is if I ever attack the group to the left black can play h3 threatening to connect under at k3 and the jump to k5 doesn't stop this. I could answer h3 with the j3 kick to cut in sente but locally that's unpleasant. Also part of my feeling was I couldn't decide what to do in the lower right, and by playing h3 I am attempting to settle locally (as in the game later) whilst giving black as few extra moves on the outside as possible so that later I can do something to the lower right, but I never really found anything that good.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Jumps $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . 4 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . 1 . 2 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . O . X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Uberdude · #7

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

I would have played 26 at F4 without thinking twice.

I really dislike that move so I don't think I seriously considered it. It's so slack in local territory I feel playing it is already admitting defeat and didn't consider the result after avalanche to be so hopeless I needed to play that yucky joseki. What next after this expected continuation? Adding a move to the lower side around a feels slow and black will likely approach at b, yet playing in the top left area means black could play on the lower side and still make a lot in the lower right quadrant, and now white has less territory than black in the lower left to show for getting that strong stone at f4.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c And now? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , . 2 . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 3 O . . . . . a . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

Move 36 at H3 looks tiny. Is B going there anytime soon if you don't? As white, I'd leave the potential of K4 and play E7 myself.

Yes, I suppose I can treat k4 for m4 as a good exchange for me, disrupting the lower side compared to black playing at k4 first, and e7 is an obvious vital point. But after e7 black j5 looks strong.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

My first reaction to 62 is that it must be a misclick. But you read better than I, so I suppose you had your reasons.

If I don't then black can play b15 and I can't block unless I want to fight a ko to keep e15, and losing e15 is big as it lets black connect the weak f13 stones to the group above. And answering b15 with c16 is incredibly painful and leaves my corner group without 2 eyes. It also means I have the e14 push and c13 tesuji to connect for later, which is very big versus black descending at b14 which is semi-sente for the life of the corner group (if I have e16 then the f17 cut and squeeze can gain my eyeshape in sente at some cost) and big for the yose below.

Uberdude · #8

drmwc wrote:

Isn't move 66 too small? You take gote at a key point of the game. I'd either do something to stenghten the two stones at the bottom, or try to invade at this point.

It wasn't my original plan (can't remember what that was, maybe g15 or c13), but I felt I needed to separate black's groups here and stop him connecting and building influence across the centre. Also a problem I had throughout the game is I couldn't decide what to do in the lower right so kept putting it off and playing nothing our of fear of playing something wrong, hoping to find a better move later

drmwc wrote:

Following B 67, I'd probably play at G14 in an effort to jusitfy 66, and argue that my 2 stones can take care of themselves. If you cut black here, the aji against the top right corner may become more effective.

I agree, my play here was slack in allowing black to get the L6 sequence onwards in sente to build the lower right and settle the lower left and then come back to safely connect at g14, indeed he just commented (move 76) he was relieved to get this.

drmwc wrote:

Is there a case for this move with W 3 instead of blocking at 4? I B plays at 4, invading the top is easy because of the aji at a.

If I wanted to give the corner I would have played c15 kick as attach on top. As I was already strong on the left I felt giving the corner to make more strength (and even not particularly good at that) there was not a good trade.

Phoenix · #9

Most of us seem to agree that :w26:

is one of the key points of this opening. I may be wrong on this as I'm weaker than you, drmwc and Joaz, but has anyone considered the attachment on top as a response to Black's high kakari?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Feasible? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . 2 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 5 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 3 . . 9 . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

You can still opt for territory by attaching under right away, and Black's moyo dreams are shattered. It gives up sente, and Black will be looking at or around a next.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Use your group! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 5 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . 0 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If Black counter-attaches, White can bump and follow the sequence to :b8:

, then hane at :w9:

since the marked stones support the ladder.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Use your group! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X O 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O 1 . . 9 . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black has no choice but to play :b2:

, and ends up losing the corner. This time White gets sente, and Black gets thickness towards the hoshi stone. Black will almost certainly start a fight before this sequence unravels, in which the marked White stones will play a vital part.

Just some ideas involving a move that is often forgotten. I personally don't like the attach-on-top, but it can certainly serve its purpose in the right circumstances. :mrgreen:

Joaz Banbeck · **#10**

Uberdude wrote:

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

I would have played 26 at F4 without thinking twice.

I really dislike that move so I don't think I seriously considered it. It's so slack in local territory I feel playing it is already admitting defeat and didn't consider the result after avalanche to be so hopeless I needed to play that yucky joseki. What next after this expected continuation? Adding a move to the lower side around a feels slow and...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c And now? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , . 2 . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 3 O . . . . . a . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...

I don't see the problem with a move around 'a'. It is the direction that white wants, IMHO. Note that in the two pro games you showed, white won in the game in which he played it early.

ez4u · **#11**

Uberdude wrote:

I just lost this game on OGS (my first in just over 10 months, no 1 year win streak for me :sad:

) and am not sure where I lost it. I feel that black's lower right corner got too big and I never found an effective way to deal with it. This opening (diagram below) has been played professionally many times, but I wonder if it is actually good for black.

...
Also for comparison, here's Takao Shinji losing against Choi Cheolhan with the same opening on the right and avalanche in the lower left, it diverges a bit later.
...

Note that Takao thought it was advantage White until he chose to answer Black 97 (see the first diagram in his blog post). In retrospect he thought he should have played more aggressively against Black's lower-left group (see second diagram). In that second diagram, note also the peep at 4 together with the diagonal play at 6. This seems one natural target against Black's lower left shape. However H3 as played in the game makes this nearly impossible since if White peeps with F2 (White 4 in Takao's diagram), another stone is still required to connect it to H3. That, more than anything is what makes H3 look strange to me.

Why did White decide to invade high in this game rather than low? With Black positions on both sides the high stone seems to float without a base, just waiting to be attacked. White did not want to run with it so starting high seems a contradiction. Perhaps an indication of White's ambivalence toward this position in general?

Uberdude · **#12**

ez4u wrote:

Note that Takao thought it was advantage White until he chose to answer Black 97 (see the first diagram in his blog post)....

Thanks for Takao's comments, very interesting!

ez4u wrote:

In that second diagram, note also the peep at 4 together with the diagonal play at 6. This seems one natural target against Black's lower left shape. However H3 as played in the game makes this nearly impossible since if White peeps with F2 (White 4 in Takao's diagram), another stone is still required to connect it to H3. That, more than anything is what makes H3 look strange to me.

Excellent point. Later in the game I was wondering about that peep by judged it didn't make black's group that weak and it loses quite a lot of yose in the corner.

ez4u wrote:

Why did White decide to invade high in this game rather than low? With Black positions on both sides the high stone seems to float without a base, just waiting to be attacked. White did not want to run with it so starting high seems a contradiction. Perhaps an indication of White's ambivalence toward this position in general?

Yeah. Go is hard. I can't remember why I chose high.

Uberdude · **#13**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

Uberdude wrote:

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

I would have played 26 at F4 without thinking twice.

I really dislike that move so I don't think I seriously considered it. It's so slack in local territory I feel playing it is already admitting defeat and didn't consider the result after avalanche to be so hopeless I needed to play that yucky joseki. What next after this expected continuation? Adding a move to the lower side around a feels slow and...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c And now? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , . 2 . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 3 O . . . . . a . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...

I don't see the problem with a move around 'a'. It is the direction that white wants, IMHO. Note that in the two pro games you showed, white won in the game in which he played it early.

Yes, white gets the desired direction, but does he get enough points? Using that joseki to make points is not very efficient. I worry that if play continues as below (one plausible continuation of normal moves) white will just end up losing by 10 points. Then again that's what happened in the game ;-)

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Contd... $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . 2 . . 6 . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . 1 . . 7 . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Uberdude · **#14**

Phoenix wrote:

Most of us seem to agree that :w26:

is one of the key points of this opening. I may be wrong on this as I'm weaker than you, drmwc and Joaz, but has anyone considered the attachment on top as a response to Black's high kakari?
...
Just some ideas involving a move that is often forgotten. I personally don't like the attach-on-top, but it can certainly serve its purpose in the right circumstances. :mrgreen:

Nice idea to get some influence and territory too. You are correct I often forget this move. In fact I remember looking at some stats and with this joseki white has a good win percentage.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 4 2 . . . . $$ | . . . X 1 . . . . $$ | . . 5 , 3 . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

drmwc · **#15**

I think it was around 68 you lost.

I have a cunning plan:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc My plan $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . 4 9 7 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X 8 3 5 O . X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O O X . 0 O 6 . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 My plan continued $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . 3 O 1 X . 7 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X 5 X O X X O 6 X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O O X 4 2 O O . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 More! $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 4 . . 3 . O . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X 8 2 X O X X . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O X X O O X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O O X O O O O . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X 6 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't know who wins the semeai. And maybe B can do better by taking a liberty with move 17. But it looks fun.

Edited to add:

Actually, I think move 16 should be played before mover 14:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 My plan continued $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . 3 O 1 X 5 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O X X O 4 X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O O X . 2 O O . 0 6 7 . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . 8 9 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and the hairy semeai isn't necessary. B has lots of cutting points. For example,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Cunning like a fox $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . 4 O . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O X X O O X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O O X . O O O . O O X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X 3 2 . . . 5 O X 1 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

B wil struggle to play both 21 and 23 - W is alive (I think). So if B compromises:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Plan part 2 $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . 1 O . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O X X O O X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O O X . O O O . O O X 3 X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . O X 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

W live in sente, so can now cut B at g14. I'd be alot happier with B here than in the game.

Uberdude · **#16**

drmwc wrote:

I think it was around 68 you lost.

I have a cunning plan:
...

That's much more enterprising than what I did, which was rather obedient, uncreative, and with little thought!

tapir · **#17**

Did you consider playing W8 at the starpoint? If you do not like the result after the attachment, that would be the first move you could do differently to avoid the attachment right away in my opinion. Incidentally it seems some professionals started to play it very recently as well. Just a few examples but almost all from recent years.

Can anyone comment on the development that the attachment is now after a brief period of being the prominent play by black again played less than the "old" pincer? It seems professionals do indeed like White in these variations nowadays.

Uberdude · **#18**

tapir wrote:

Did you consider playing W8 at the starpoint? If you do not like the result after the attachment, that would be the first move you could do differently to avoid the attachment right away in my opinion. Incidentally it seems some professionals started to play it very recently as well. Just a few examples but almost all from recent years.

Yes, I also considered 3rd line below hoshi rather than hoshi itself, or 2nd line attach probe under the shimari to make r8 less appealing if he nobis out and then I play hoshi. But at the time I was quite happy to play that joseki (for the first time, at least in a serious game) to learn about it.

Lost in (pro) opening?

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