Deceived by go incompetence. I saw the one diagram on the one page, and then some plays on the other page, and didn't quite get it right. I kind of liked some peoples explanations though. They actually made sense to me.

It's useful to you though. Now you know you didn't understand that joseki properly. If you did you wouldn't miss the Q14 stone's presence in Bill's diagram. This is a good thing, finding our blindspots is important.

I must say that my first thought seeing this thread was not "Go Seigen said it, there's probably something to it", but was "SmoothOper posted it, it is probably nonsense".

To be fair, while I think it was fairly crappy of SmoothOper to attribute some nonsense he'd just made up to Go Seigen, I don't find this position (or any) easy to analyse at all. I made a post earlier in this thread giving my perspective on why it might not be a bad move; why was I wrong? (I could probably guess at some reasons for that too, but I really am just piling guess on top of guess without being strong enough to be able to judge what's right and what's not.)

A pro may not punish immediately, or if they did, probably not by capturing that one stone, I looked it up evidently the kick isn't even joseki without a pincer in place.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 3 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't know when it's appropriate, but it seems as if the initial kick is becoming more common in professional play. Many of the things we know aren't joseki get reevaluated quite often.

_________________
Occupy Babel!

I can find over 800 examples of the kick without a pincer in pro games. It's always been explained to me as a special purpose move, usually referring to a pincer being in place, but I strongly suspect there are other conditions when it is also the best move. I'm not strong enough to spot a pattern in pro games though and talk authoritatively about it.

See move 57 here for example:



I really don't understand why you'd kick here at all. Maybe making a base for the two stones is too small or something for White and tenuki'ing after standing to the kick is more painful than just a tenuki from the kakari?

Boidhre,

Ok, but why then play rather than in the first place? Is it to make white heavier before playing ?

Maybe to protect the corner in sente?
Edit: well, since it was invaded shortly after, obviously not
But developping that area in sente could have been a reason.

actually it has two contridicting meaning that actually means same.
it was to protect the corner in sente but in different perspective... it was to force the invasion in the corner.
situation is that if white doesnt invade now then he will likely lose on points.
if black doesnt kick and let white invade then his stone is light and can not be attacked.
by kicking the stone white is more reluctant to invade but still forced to.
i look at it as black forcing white to invade and build some thickness instead to compensate for his lack of thickness.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

My impression was that if white lived on the side, white would lose the ability to invade the corner, and the side was very small because of the low black group on the bottom right. As magicwand said, white had to invade the corner, and so black is making it as costly as possible.

Why is that? In the initial thread-diagram Black gains superior global influence for giving white just a corner and it's not even 100% safe in white's case.

It is interesting to note that black gets to play the pincer in the end. perhaps he saw the corner invasion as a forced sequence and knew he'd have sente to pince?

I dont see superior global influence. I see white thickness.
i think many professionals will agree with my assessment.

i see that some professionals already tried tenuki. (surprised)
guess why it is not popular. because most think it is bad for black.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

Isn't it kind of odd that a lot of black stones all around the board can't match with one!! area where white is thick? I always thought that when I run over the board while placing stones framework-like over it then it'd be OK to let have my opponent one corner, even a safe and thick one^^.

I am terrible at tenuki. I will play the local situation to death and if my opponent lets me get away with it I'll almost always win. (When they are strong at tenuki I will lose horribly...)

However, I love that move . The timing seems beautiful. White has just played 3 moves in the lower right corner and black now has 3 stones in the other 3 corners (4 if you count ). Black seems to be moving much faster than white and that is never good for white. If white plays the kick again, I think another tenuki would be fantastic for black. If white plays the standard pull-back, then black could tenuki and ruin the potential of white's bottom corner group with something on the right.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Tenuki.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I like black a lot in this case. I need to remember the importance of the tenuki...

The reason I play 3 and not a is that I fear a is too close to white's thickness. I don't think 3 needs to be afraid though. I do think b could be better because it makes a nice 2 space extension, but I'm pretty sure 3 is playable and I like that it more directly challenges white's potential.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

For those asking about "when to kick" the book I love called "improve your intuition-attack and defense" says to kick when:

1. You have a pincer in place on the other side (so you take away the base and make them heavy.)

2. If you have given up on invading that side, and giving them more strength makes them over concentrated.

Of if they did the two space group thing and when you kick it makes then over concentrated.

Maybe, but remember white is really solid and strong. Spreading out all over leaving weaknesses is not a good idea, come to love the solid white shape.