Escapers, escapers!!!...

SmoothOper · **#41**

xed_over wrote:

Bantari wrote:

When you disconnect, your timer simply keeps running. That's it.

If you do not come back until your time runs out, you lose on time.

...

This is how it is handled in real life. You leave the table on your move, nobody is stopping the clock. You don't come back before time expires - you lose. End of story, and I never heard anybody saying that was unfair.

this is probably the best suggestion I've heard.

I think the KGS policy is a hold over from when connections weren't very stable.

dfunkt · **#42**

jts wrote:

Maybe the next flavor-of-the-month Go server can offer an in-house therapy department: talk therapy, meditation training, breathing exercises, and other packaged services to promote mental and and emotional well-being.

skydyr wrote:

SmoothOper wrote:

More and more this seems a somewhat KGS exclusive problem, for whatever reason.

I'm going to hypothesize for everyone's consideration that the real problem is that KGS is too good at what it does. Because it doesn't have terrible missing features like no community, broken gamefile export, poor time selection support, or lack of available games, people have to latch onto small nitpicky issues to complain about. Because it has everything except for some small nitpicky things, there will never be enough user motivation to move to a new server. Instead, we will have to endure countless discussions about fischer timing and escaper policy and are doomed to rehash them for all eternity. :mrgreen:

It's pretty obvious that KGS is your server of choice. No one really cares about your sarcastic and mocking comments. If you haven't got something constructive to say, why do you participate in the conversation?

xed_over · **#43**

SmoothOper wrote:

I think the KGS policy is a hold over from when connections weren't very stable.

connections still aren't very stable

quantumf · **#44**

Adjournments are more real and more convenient than you may think. Quite often I'll be interrupted in a game, by the doorbell, the phone, a family member, whatever. Being able to take a 10-30 minute break to sort out the issue (with my opponent's agreement of course), is pretty handy. I don't do this daily, it probably happens 1/50 games, but occasionally I'm happy with the KGS system (although I admit to fuming briefly when an escaper starts another game right after escaping our game).

Li Kao · **#45**

hyperpape wrote:

An unfinished game is like a sour taste in your mouth.

But making it impossible to finish a game after 5 minutes of absence causes more unfinished games, not fewer.

jts · **#46**

dfunkt wrote:

No one really cares about your sarcastic and mocking comments. If you haven't got something constructive to say, why do you participate in the conversation?

People are angry. They feel disrespected by escapers. It's natural to feel angry when you think you've been disrespected. I am validating their feelings - which is the first step towards emotional recovery - and trying to find a forum in which they can explore their feelings further while watching sloppy 6-dan blitz. I think in a broader sense, it is you who are being disrespectful, by refusing to listen when people tell you that they have emotional difficulties when they play Go. You want to treat the symptom, I want to treat the disease.

dfunkt · **#47**

jts wrote:

dfunkt wrote:

No one really cares about your sarcastic and mocking comments. If you haven't got something constructive to say, why do you participate in the conversation?

People are angry. They feel disrespected by escapers. It's natural to feel angry when you think you've been disrespected. I am validating their feelings - which is the first step towards emotional recovery - and trying to find a forum in which they can explore their feelings further while watching sloppy 6-dan blitz. I think in a broader sense, it is you who are being disrespectful, by refusing to listen when people tell you that they have emotional difficulties when they play Go. You want to treat the symptom, I want to treat the disease.

At least you made me smile this time.

hyperpape · **#48**

Li Kao wrote:

hyperpape wrote:

An unfinished game is like a sour taste in your mouth.

But making it impossible to finish a game after 5 minutes of absence causes more unfinished games, not fewer.

Indeed. I'm not trying to argue for a strict escaping policy. I think KGS gets it right for me.

But I also think that there's plenty of decent reasons why people prefer their own systems. No amount of reasoning is going to change that.

dumbrope · **#49**

jts wrote:

Rather than cast stones towards KGS , let's get the camel out of our own eye. How are we going to punish escapers in L19 Malkovich games?

The guilt consumes me. I resumed my 2.

Charlie · **#50**

Li Kao wrote:

hyperpape wrote:

An unfinished game is like a sour taste in your mouth.

But making it impossible to finish a game after 5 minutes of absence causes more unfinished games, not fewer.

I disagree. It makes no difference.

If the game is forfeit after five minutes, connection problems can lead to unfinished games. If you have connection problems on KGS, your opponent invariably considers you to be an escaper and leaves to start another game and the game is never resumed, even if you do reconnect.

At least the hard five minute rule leaves no ambiguity: you know you have no more or less than five minutes to reconnect or the game is forfeit. With the wishy-washy KGS escaper rule, it's pretty random whether your opponent waits for you to come back or not.

Splatted · **#51**

It's not random; let them know you have a poor connection and almost everyone will wait. (A note on your profile page suffices for this.)

Splatted · **#52**

SpongeBob wrote:

Splatted wrote:

Perhaps I should be a little more specific in my question: Are those of you that dislike the KGS system angry because it doesn't punish every single escape? And if so, what's so different about a system that awards a loss the first time someone leaves a game, and one that starts adjudicating losses after a person has left a certain number?

There are a number of quite obvious differences:

SpongeBob wrote:

- The escaper can start another game right after his escape. You have to have good nerves to not get angry in this situation. Caution: do not insult the escaper in this case - he can let you get banned! (happenened to me once)

He can start a new game anyway. What does this have to do with whether the escaped game is forfeited?

SpongeBob wrote:

- You will have an unfinished game in your list, which lets you look like an escaper yourself

Not really since it's the same for everyone.

SpongeBob wrote:

- I claim that it is very rarely used for its purpose (adjournment), but more often it is abused by escapers

I use ii all the time, and not just for the leeway in reconnection time. It's fun to open up unfinished games and see if the opponent appears.

SpongeBob wrote:

- The system constantly leads to moderator involvement through complaints

This isn't a fault with the system. At worst it's a symptom of those faults.

Redundant · **#53**

For me at least, I find the KGS system annoying because I prefer my rated games to be in a competitive environment. There isn't a single online game I've played where leaving a rated or ranked game isn't met with huge penalties. If, on the other hand, you view rated games as just a crutch for matchmaking, then the KGS system is fine.

Most online games solve this issue by having a hidden rating that is used for matchmaking, and a public rating (or something similar) that comes from rated games.

DJLLAP · **#54**

Redundant wrote:

Most online games solve this issue by having a hidden rating that is used for matchmaking, and a public rating (or something similar) that comes from rated games.

Can you give a couple examples of games that do this?

Redundant · **#55**

DJLLAP wrote:

Redundant wrote:

Most online games solve this issue by having a hidden rating that is used for matchmaking, and a public rating (or something similar) that comes from rated games.

Can you give a couple examples of games that do this?

League of legends used to give you a numerical elo for ranked games, but now just gives you a position in a league system (So you advance from bronze to silver, gold, platinum, diamond, challenger). Starcraft 2 has a similar system also, except I'm not sure how their leagues work except there's bronze through gold masters and grandmasters.

hyperpape · **#56**

In my time on KGS, I think I've been able to resume and complete between a third and a half of my games where someone disappeared.

Bantari · **#57**

From hat I understand there are two principal ways of handling the escaper problem:
1. Try to appease the non-escaping player (award win, punish the escaper, etc.) or
2. Try to preserve the integrity of rating system.

I think KGS is attempting the latter, even though players might not be very appeased.
Its a matter of philosophy.

Escapers, escapers!!!...

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