5-4 joseki, 3-4 approach

jts · #1

I've seen this before:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Corner $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . 8 . . . $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . $$ | . . 6 , . 3 . . . $$ | . . 4 1 . . . . . $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Today I saw this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Corner $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . 8 9 . . $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . $$ | . . 6 , . 3 . . . $$ | . . 4 1 . . . . . $$ | . 7 5 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Up to this point, this looks worse for B than the joseki I'm familiar with. Next:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Corner $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . 9 . 6 . . $$ | . . . 8 5 O 1 4 . $$ | . . . O 7 3 2 . . $$ | . . O . . X . . . $$ | . . O X 0 . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I still thought things were going okay for W, but it actually turned into a disaster. Perhaps W can simply live in the corner here with :w10:

and hope that the ponnuki is a better side position than what he would normally have? Or is capturing :b9:

in the first diagram just not playable?

logan · #2

Most important is that Black loses sente with this sequence. Second is that White can create a ladder aji.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm1 $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . 8 9 . . $$ | . . . 2 . . 0 . . $$ | . . 6 , . 3 . . . $$ | . . 4 1 . . . . . $$ | . 7 5 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 cont. $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 2 O X . . $$ | . . . O . 1 O 3 . $$ | . . O , . X . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

If the ladder aji isn't sufficient, then White can also play this way. There's a lot of aji in Black's shape. (Black still loses sente.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm1 $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . 8 9 . . $$ | . . . 2 . 0 . . . $$ | . . 6 , . 3 . . . $$ | . . 4 1 . . . . . $$ | . 7 5 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 cont. $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . O X . . $$ | . . . O . O 1 . . $$ | . . O , . X . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

This is another common pattern. Black has the choice of omitting :b11:

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm1 $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . 0 . . . $$ | . . . 2 . 8 9 . . $$ | . . 6 , . 3 . . . $$ | . . 4 1 . . . . . $$ | . 7 5 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 cont. $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . O . . . $$ | . . . O . O X . . $$ | . . O , . X . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . X X . . . 1 . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

jts · #3

Thanks! Are these from a particular dictionary, or just playing experience?

logan · #4

It's from play and study experience.

jts · #5

Well, thanks again. I hope you don't mind if I ask you for more thoughts on how these joseki work...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . a , O b . . . O . . . O . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So, (a) would you play at A at all? And if so, (b) would you have in mind any particular ways to use the cut at B in the middle game?

Sverre · #6

jts wrote:

So, (a) would you play at A at all? And if so, (b) would you have in mind any particular ways to use the cut at B in the middle game?

I wouldn't play A, and as White I would fix the cut at B. This works very well with the k4 stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is bad for Black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . 1 , O 6 . . . O . . . O . , O . . | $$ | . . . 5 3 4 . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

When White has use for influence towards the bottom I would be more inclined to take the 3-3 point.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c White looks a little bit thinner like this, I think? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . 3 , O . . . . O . . . O . , O . . | $$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

jts · #7

Thanks to both Logan and Sverre.

Just for a bit more info I plugged these moves into Kombilo. It appears that black never plays G18 in the original variation, whether or not he has descended at B14. In some cases the ladder was good for black (i.e., the player taking the outside) and in some cases it wasn't, so professionals seem to think that either the ladder aji or the cut is miserable for black. Instead, when B has descended to B14, he normally ends with some move that protects the cut.

There are 900 odd games in Kombilo where B has an open 5-4 with a side extension, and W comes in on the 3-4 640 times and at 3-3 78 times. (Which surprises me, since Sverre's idea looked quite good to me.) Sverre's variation does not seem to be played by Black (that is, the player taking the outside) with or without the extension; instead of kicking, B seals the corner with the 3-5 or the 4-5; but on Eidogo I can only see two example games. W's result in this one is interesting.

Similarly, Eidogo will only show a few of the example games for the 3-4, but the idea seems to be to probe W's response. Maybe someone with a real database will clarify.

logan · #8

jts wrote:

Well, thanks again. I hope you don't mind if I ask you for more thoughts on how these joseki work...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . a , O b . . . O . . . O . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So, (a) would you play at A at all? And if so, (b) would you have in mind any particular ways to use the cut at B in the middle game?

You can play any of these moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . b . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . e , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . f , O . . . . O . . . O . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

F is fine, because Black has the ladder so can attach at :b3:

:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Ladder $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . Y . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 3 2 8 . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . 9 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . 1 , O . . . . O . . . O . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If White pulls back, then Black has now gained a superior result than attaching at e3 first. And Black has maintained sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . 1 . O 8 . . . O . . . O . , O . . | $$ | . . . 7 5 6 . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The most complicated resistance may be the following, but White's incomplete shape on the bottom/right will give Black enough room.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . 1 7 O . . . . O . . . O . , O . . | $$ | . 9 8 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Cont. 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . 1 X X O . . 9 . O . . . O . , O . . | $$ | . X O O X 3 5 . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | 7 O 8 . 2 4 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Cont. 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 9 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . X X X O . . X . O . . . O . , O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X 3 2 . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | X O O . O O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 . 6 . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm31 Cont. 3 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | 5 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 9 4 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | 0 8 6 . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . X X X O . . X . O . . . O . , O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X O . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | X O O . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm41 Cont. 4 White's shape is poor, Black has good flow. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | O O O . O . . . 3 1 2 . . . . X O . . | $$ | . X X X O . . X . O . . . O . , O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X O . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | X O O . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

You can also tenuki. White's bottom isn't yet secure, giving Black aji to settle a group on the bottom at some later time:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Tenuki; possible continuation later in game $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . 2 . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X , O 9 . . . O . . . O . , O . . | $$ | . . 6 4 . . . 7 8 . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Cont. 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . O . . . O 8 . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X 2 O X 3 6 . O . . . O . , O . . | $$ | . . O O 1 . 7 X O . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X X . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

jts · #9

Thank you for the analysis, Logan. Interesting ideas. I'm not totally sold on the "cont. 4" diagram, although it's an interesting way to play.

5-4 joseki, 3-4 approach

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