Huang Longshi Game: Black to Play

logan · #1

I'm interested in seeing where you think Black should play next. I will post the game continuation in a couple of days.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Zhou Donghou (W) - Huang Longshi (B) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . O O O X X . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . X X O O . . O X X . . . | $$ | . X X . X O . O X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . O X . . X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O O O X X O O X . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O O O X X O O X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O X X O . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O O O X O O O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X X X X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Phoenix · #2

I'm considering the circled areas, but I'll need to read more to make a choice. I feel Black's J15 group is safe enough because of White's weakness at and around 'a'. Also, 'b' looks like a killing move and I'm not sure why it hasn't been played yet.

The marked Black stones seem to be in danger of damezumari, but I don't see a way for White to take advantage of it. White's E6 group doesn't seem attackable yet. Of the circled points I'm most wary of the one I put at H6 because though it reinforces a key area, it doesn't have much potential considering White has a lot of room to maneuver, as well as his hoshi stone in the bottom-right.

I don't know how to reinforce a large knight's move efficiently, and I'm pretty sure it can't be done in sente. The board is too dynamic to lose sente at this stage.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Zhou Donghou (W) - Huang Longshi (B) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O C . . . | $$ | . O O O X X . . O a . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . X X O O . . O X X . . . | $$ | . X X . X O b O X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . O X . . X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O O O X X O O X . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O O O X X O O X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O X X O . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O O O X O O O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O B B . . X X X X X C . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . B O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O O O C . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So I'll get back to you before you post the rest. :mrgreen:

illluck · #3

@Phoenix:

moyoaji · #4

I see now. There is no time for a net and the ladder doesn't work because of two ladder breakers...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Not enough of a net $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . O O O X X . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . X X O O . . O X X . . . | $$ | . X X . X O 1 O X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . O X . . X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O O O X X O O X . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O O O X X O O X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O X X O . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O O O X O O O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O B B 4 3 X X X X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O 8 5 B 2 6 9 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 0 B O X . 7 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Circled stones are ladder breakers $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O C . . . | $$ | . O O O X X . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . X X O O . . O X X . . . | $$ | . X X . X O 1 O X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . O X . . X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O O O X X O O X . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O O O X X O O X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O X X O . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O O O X O O O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O B B 4 3 X X X X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 5 B 2 6 8 9 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . B W X 7 0 O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O O O . . X O O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X O O X W . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . O . X . X O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Splatted · #5

Here are my thoughts. I accidentaly read moyoaji's post because it was the one that showed when I opened the thread, but restrained myself from reading anyone else's.

shapenaji · #6

EDIT: Should have actually just put the variation I'm protecting against

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Zhou Donghou (W) - Huang Longshi (B) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . O O O X X . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . X X O O . . O X X . . . | $$ | . X X . X O . O X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . O X . . X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O O O X X O O X . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O O O X X O O X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O X X O . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O O O X O O O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X 3 2 X X X X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 4 X 1 5 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is a real threat for white, since all the ladders are broken and black will only have 2 liberties, so nets don't work.

so then the question is, what's the best way to protect and keep up the attack on the left side,

my gut is that the simple fix is what we want, there are complicated ways to fix, but nothing seems as good as just the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Zhou Donghou (W) - Huang Longshi (B) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . O O O X X . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . X X O O . . O X X . . . | $$ | . X X . X O . O X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . O X . . X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O O O X X O O X . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O O O X X O O X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O X X O . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O O O X O O O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X X X X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

John Fairbairn · #7

I'm interested in the fact that the OP evidently thought that the next move (Black 98) was worthy of comment - and it is easy enough to see why, though devotees of Go Seigen may find it obvious. But the great guoshou Xu Xingyou didn't think this move worthy of comment and instead praised Black 80 (O13, which was played before O15). The reason was that Black 80 led to two stunning sacrifice moves at the top and so a large territory on the right about 60 moves later. Once you see how it unfolds, you can understand that this is implicit in the position already and almost inexorable, so it is not really a matter of deep reading but of insight, and that is what appealed to Xu. Moreover, I'd think that there's a good chance that many amateurs would think that Black 80 is the most boring move on the board.

So the differences between pro and amateur are apparently not just in the moves played but in how the moves are esteemed. Fascinating!

gogameguru · #8

shapenaji wrote:

EDIT: Should have actually just put the variation I'm protecting against

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Zhou Donghou (W) - Huang Longshi (B) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . O O O X X . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . X X O O . . O X X . . . | $$ | . X X . X O . O X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . O X . . X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O O O X X O O X . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O O O X X O O X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O X X O . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O O O X O O O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X 3 2 X X X X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 4 X 1 5 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is a real threat for white, since all the ladders are broken and black will only have 2 liberties, so nets don't work.

so then the question is, what's the best way to protect and keep up the attack on the left side,

my gut is that the simple fix is what we want, there are complicated ways to fix, but nothing seems as good as just the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Zhou Donghou (W) - Huang Longshi (B) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . O O O X X . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . X X O O . . O X X . . . | $$ | . X X . X O . O X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . O X . . X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O O O X X O O X . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O O O X X O O X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O X X O . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O O O X O O O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X X X X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

@shapenaji

@everyone

Since white's basically relying on a ladder to live (and there's also the potential of forcing white to cut at H8 and then squeezing with a net) a better strategy should be to start a fight around the bottom or bottom right and force white to to spend another move making life, while black makes two moves in a row around the bottom.

Sorry, no time to make proper diagrams today

, but I'm talking about moves like A and B in the diagram below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 A or B look good. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . O O O X X . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . X X O O . . O X X . . . | $$ | . X X . X O e O X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . O X . . X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O O O X X O O X . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O O O X X O O X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O X X O . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O O O X O O O O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X X X X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . X c . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . b . , . . . . a O . . . | $$ | . . . . d . X . W . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If I were black, I think just attaching at P4 (A) looks natural and good. It's a ladder breaker for the H8 (C) cut, so it threatens to kill white's top left center group indirectly, while also protecting the cutting point and gaining the advantage in the lower right (damaging white's corner and taking a one move advantage there). I think white will have to fall back to G15 (E) after that.

At first, the diagonal move at H4 (B) also looks plausible. The strategy's somewhat similar: a lot of moves around the bottom center will be sente for black (indirectly threatening to kill white's top left center group), so eventually white will have to spend a move saving his weak group and black will get two moves in a row in the fighting at the bottom.

Because of that, if black plays H4 (B), white's J3 (marked) will basically be paralyzed in terms of running away. However the aji around E3 (D) looks like it will be annoying later on, and white could play to sacrifice the marked stone for a benefit in the corner, or to connect under. Black would really like to be confident that he could attack white's lower left group effectively if white connected under (from D to the marked stone) and made black thick. But since black B will probably provoke white C immediately, instead of just living (and the cutting point isn't protected this way, unlike with the move at A), white will become thick and black can't seriously bank on attacking at all.

Because of all that, I think we should reject moves like B and C. Black A is bigger and more active.

logan · #9

John Fairbairn wrote:

I'm interested in the fact that the OP evidently thought that the next move (Black 98) was worthy of comment - and it is easy enough to see why, though devotees of Go Seigen may find it obvious. But the great guoshou Xu Xingyou didn't think this move worthy of comment and instead praised Black 80 (O13, which was played before O15). The reason was that Black 80 led to two stunning sacrifice moves at the top and so a large territory on the right about 60 moves later. Once you see how it unfolds, you can understand that this is implicit in the position already and almost inexorable, so it is not really a matter of deep reading but of insight, and that is what appealed to Xu. Moreover, I'd think that there's a good chance that many amateurs would think that Black 80 is the most boring move on the board.

So the differences between pro and amateur are apparently not just in the moves played but in how the moves are esteemed. Fascinating!

As can be seen in the discussion, this position has a way of almost magically guiding players in the right direction -- even though the position first appears so confusing and dynamic. It also asks players to assess the status of a group and ask "Why hasn't Black capture this yet?" So I chose this position not out of great esteem for a particular move, but because I thought people might find it fun, interesting, and instructive. After I reveal the move, I think some people may gain a better sense of the way Longshi plays and how to handle this kind of position in their own games.

As for Xu Xingyou, the followup move was standard technique in classic Chinese go (the kind of standard technique that Go Seigen incorporated into his game), so normally he wouldn't have seen a need to comment.

logan · **#10**

Together everyone has essentially solved the problem (good job!), so I'm going to go ahead and post the continuation ahead of time

Continuation:

oren · **#11**

John Fairbairn wrote:

So the differences between pro and amateur are apparently not just in the moves played but in how the moves are esteemed. Fascinating!

I'm wondering where else this occurs. Go Seigen and Yoda Norimoto at least don't think the 'Ear Reddening Move' was all that interesting, but it's now one of the most famous in Go history.

HermanHiddema · **#12**

John Fairbairn wrote:

I'm interested in the fact that the OP evidently thought that the next move (Black 98) was worthy of comment - and it is easy enough to see why, though devotees of Go Seigen may find it obvious. But the great guoshou Xu Xingyou didn't think this move worthy of comment and instead praised Black 80 (O13, which was played before O15). The reason was that Black 80 led to two stunning sacrifice moves at the top and so a large territory on the right about 60 moves later. Once you see how it unfolds, you can understand that this is implicit in the position already and almost inexorable, so it is not really a matter of deep reading but of insight, and that is what appealed to Xu. Moreover, I'd think that there's a good chance that many amateurs would think that Black 80 is the most boring move on the board.

So the differences between pro and amateur are apparently not just in the moves played but in how the moves are esteemed. Fascinating!

I think that pros and amateurs are very similar in which moves they comment on. They comment on moves that surprised them, moves that they themselves would not have considered. The difference, then, lies in what they consider ordinary.

I must say that in this case I dismissed P4 because I thought it too ordinary. The ladder, and its relevance to the life of white's group, are very obvious to me. So a ladder breaker would be an obvious continuation, and P4 is, to me, the most obvious candidate. Attaching to 4-4 is a very typical ladder breaker.

Given the fact that logan posted this game of Huang Longshi with "black to play" in the title, my immediate assumption was: Black's next move must be extraordinary. So it can't be P4, that's about as ordinary a move as they come.

Huang Longshi Game: Black to Play

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