A Series Of Questions

billywoods · **#41**

karaklis wrote:

This question is probably irrelevant to native English speakers (unless they are expats in one of the CJK countries).

It's not irrelevant, but it is kind of hard to answer. Go players and Asian language learners overlap a fair amount!

Of course, my favourite language for anything I want to be able to read and understand is English; trailing behind are German and French, and then related European languages that aren't too awful to read once I spend a little while understanding their basic structure. (I find reading plainly written technical documents about subjects I'm familiar with in Italian surprisingly easy, considering I can't actually produce two words in Italian.) Then comes Japanese (which I'm passably competent at reading as long as it's written plainly enough), but it's tiring. I wonder whether my Japanese or my go is taxed more by reading a wordy go book. My Chinese and Korean are, well, non-existent.

I find it hard to weigh these factors against each other. Should my favourite language be one of the ones I can speak that there are very few go books written in, or one of the ones I can't speak that go books abound in? A year ago my answer would plainly have been "English"; perhaps in a few years' time my answer will be "Japanese". For now, though, I can't answer.

xed_over · **#42**

billywoods wrote:

karaklis wrote:

This question is probably irrelevant to native English speakers (unless they are expats in one of the CJK countries).

It's not irrelevant, but it is kind of hard to answer. Go players and Asian language learners overlap a fair amount!

Of course, my favourite language for anything I want to be able to read and understand is English; trailing behind are German and French, and then related European languages that aren't too awful to read once I spend a little while understanding their basic structure. (I find reading plainly written technical documents about subjects I'm familiar with in Italian surprisingly easy, considering I can't actually produce two words in Italian.) Then comes Japanese (which I'm passably competent at reading as long as it's written plainly enough), but it's tiring. I wonder whether my Japanese or my go is taxed more by reading a wordy go book. My Chinese and Korean are, well, non-existent.

I find it hard to weigh these factors against each other. Should my favourite language be one of the ones I can speak that there are very few go books written in, or one of the ones I can't speak that go books abound in? A year ago my answer would plainly have been "English"; perhaps in a few years' time my answer will be "Japanese". For now, though, I can't answer.

yeah, but when most people learn go, they usually learn the technical terminology of one specific language or another.

I'd say that most of us in the West learn the Japanese terminology of the game, so to the point that many of those words have become English words themselves (and as Mr Fairbairn has often pointed out, the meanings may not even be the same any more).

Even the Chinese professionals teaching here in the West have adopted the Japanese terms when teaching in English.

The Koreans, however, have been slow to use Japanese/English Go terms, and seem to insist mostly on still using Korean terms instead, when teaching in English.

There was even a recent Facebook post from a Korean pro who mentioned something about dansu, and had to explain it meant 'atari' when questioned. One poster went as far to say they were wrong to to try and use 'dansu' instead of 'atari' when teaching in English. (I think that poster was wrong for even suggesting such a thing)

There are some pedantics who try to use actual English terms (even if made up) rather than using any borrowed Japanese terms. (I kinda like that myself, but wouldn't insist on it)

But the question in question, is quite open ended and can be answered in a number of different ways. It doesn't have to be about terminology at all.

billywoods · **#43**

xed_over wrote:

technical terminology

Well, purely on this front, I don't personally care what language it's in, as long as we all agree to stick to more-or-less one.

(I certainly wouldn't say the Korean pro was "wrong" for saying dansu instead of atari, but insisting that a group of people learn your language before you teach them is certainly unhelpful. Just like calling it "check" or "almost-gobbledness". And I would discourage anyone from calling themselves a teacher before they can speak at the level of their students.)

oren · **#44**

xed_over wrote:

The Koreans, however, have been slow to use Japanese/English Go terms, and seem to insist mostly on still using Korean terms instead, when teaching in English.

Maybe just a stereotype breaker, but if you see Younggil's commentary on gogameguru, he uses the "standard" english terminology.

xed_over · **#45**

billywoods wrote:

I certainly wouldn't say the Korean pro was "wrong" for saying dansu instead of atari, but insisting that a group of people learn your language before you teach them is certainly unhelpful.

no, its not about them trying to teach us their language, as much as its about there being no English translation available for some of these words. And why would they assume we would already know the Japanese words for the same? Or maybe they don't know the Japanese words for the same.

SmoothOper · **#46**

I wish there were Rosetta Stone type books, with the original text, English translation, pinyin(for Chinese), and terminology addendum.

I have one for Chinese songs, and a couple for cooking Chinese food, and several of fiction books. I think it would be really beneficial to my learning. I have the Lee Changho tsumego series in Chinese. I think I pick up some of it up by osmosis, but having something that translated some of the common phases would help very much, and without the pinyin, there is no way I would be able to converse.

To be fair it is easier for Chinese to use Japanese terms, since most of the Japanese go terms like black and white are Chinese characters, Japanese, adopted the Chinese writing, before they both simplified it to be different, whereas Korean is further removed, and may not even have the same terms.

Kirby · **#47**

oren wrote:

xed_over wrote:

The Koreans, however, have been slow to use Japanese/English Go terms, and seem to insist mostly on still using Korean terms instead, when teaching in English.

Maybe just a stereotype breaker, but if you see Younggil's commentary on gogameguru, he uses the "standard" english terminology.

I agree. Even at the Seattle Go Center, "Sonny" will use Japanese go terms to help explain what he means if the people listening don't understand.

xed_over · **#48**

Kirby wrote:

I agree. Even at the Seattle Go Center, "Sonny" will use Japanese go terms to help explain what he means if the people listening don't understand.

yes, and I've seem him sit and talk with LeighAnn (and others) with his notebook at length as she helps him translates Korean terms and other phrases into well known "English" terms and phrases.

Besides, he's an amateur player who has lived in the states for a long time and is likely already more sensitive to the needs of an English speaking audience.

But I've been talking primarily about professional players/teachers who the KBA have been sending out to help spread Baduk around the world.

billywoods · **#49**

xed_over wrote:

no, its not about them trying to teach us their language, as much as its about there being no English translation available for some of these words. And why would they assume we would already know the Japanese words for the same? Or maybe they don't know the Japanese words for the same.

I assume they would know we use the Japanese terms because they teach us. At some point some moderately strong western player has to have said "atari", or asked a dumb question like "what's a dansu?". Do they really think we play go without having a word for "atari", even if that word was originally stolen from Japanese? Has not a single member of the KBA ever asked what the English word for "atari" is, or reported back to the rest that we happen to have chosen Japanese by historical accident?

The point I'm trying to make is that, by and large, the Japanese words are the English words (and the German words, and...). If they don't know the English word for "atari", it's useful for them to learn it. If this sounds like an outrageous statement, replace "atari" with "water" or "hotel" or any other word they know they're likely to use during their trip to Europe. It's easier for everyone if they don't ask for a glass of "mul" and then explain to us what "mul" means unless they absolutely have to. And in a teaching context I happen to think that not confusing the student is the teacher's job.

Kuopio · **#50**

hailthorn011 wrote:

This will simply be a series of questions designed to get to know more about each player and their playing styles. It's something that I've been curious about. Sorry if it's a lame post, but I figure SOMEONE might enjoy it, and it's been awhile since I created a topic.

1. Do you prefer playing black or white. And why?
2. Do you have a favorite opening as black?
3. How did you learn your favorite opening?
4. What is your favorite language for Go?
5. What is your favorite Go term and what does it mean?
6. Do you prefer complex games or simple games?
7. Do you feel tsumego is critical to improving?
8. If you could become a professional in any country(the ones offering pro certification), which one would you choose and why?
9. Is Go your favorite hobby?
10. As a DDK, who helped your game improve the most if you can remember?
11. Is the journey more important than the end or the start? Basically, do you feel there is more value in gaining strength than simply having it?
12. Do you feel answering these questions helped you learn more about yourself and others? Explain.

For your hard work, I think I should reply. 1.I prefer white. 2. No. 3. I just watched Japanese Go Championships. 4. English. 5 about this , nothing I like or dislike. every term is just ok for me. 6 I think not too complex, nor too easy. 7 No, I doubt. 8. Japan. I love Japanese Go, cause I think it is an art. 9. no 10. Myself I guss. 11 Yes the journey is more important for me. 12 Yes I think. At least, I feel like it makes me know what kind of person I am. Even though it sounds at little bit supernatural. But I do find some of my own flaws. Thanks for your list of questions. You are so smart!!

Kuopio · **#51**

Bantari wrote:

hailthorn011 wrote:

This will simply be a series of questions designed to get to know more about each player and their playing styles. It's something that I've been curious about. Sorry if it's a lame post, but I figure SOMEONE might enjoy it, and it's been awhile since I created a topic.

1. Do you prefer playing black or white. And why?
2. Do you have a favorite opening as black?
3. How did you learn your favorite opening?
4. What is your favorite language for Go?
5. What is your favorite Go term and what does it mean?
6. Do you prefer complex games or simple games?
7. Do you feel tsumego is critical to improving?
8. If you could become a professional in any country(the ones offering pro certification), which one would you choose and why?
9. Is Go your favorite hobby?
10. As a DDK, who helped your game improve the most if you can remember?
11. Is the journey more important than the end or the start? Basically, do you feel there is more value in gaining strength than simply having it?
12. Do you feel answering these questions helped you learn more about yourself and others? Explain.

1. Black. I feel it lets me direct the game onto comfortable path more easily. Not sure if I win more with Black, though.

2. Ni-ren-sei

3. Not sure, was so long ago. Probably a leftover from the time I got to play a lot of handi games as Black. I also think its an all-purpose opening. When I feel particularly perverse, I love double san-san. But its a challenge, usually.

4. English.

5. San-san... its just so cute, and I like playing it. lol

6. I feel (my) games always have more complexity than I can comfortably grasp. So not sure how to answer. What are 'simple' games?

7. Depends on your level. As a beginner - yes. As a SDK - not so much anymore, although still useful... as a dan player - yes again. Its a generalization, of course. Your mileage might vary.

8. Japan, by default. Don't really want to live in China (have spent enough time in communist countries in my life), and I feel Korean attitudes might not suit me very well. Also, because I think Japanese 'style', if not the strongest right now, is the best balanced, whetever this means. I am much too weak to judge that, its just a feeling I have. Still, I find that very appealing. Might be changing with the new generation of Japanese pros. However - there is not much chance this will ever happen, so I don't think about it too much.

9. Depends on season. I like to take long breaks from Go every now and then - and during these times other things are my favorite hobbies.

10. A friend.

11. The journey is much more important, I think. The goal is at the end of the rainbow - you will never reach it... and even if you do, it will just be a tease towards another goal. If you are fixated on the goal too much, one of two things will happen: (a) you will reach it and go do something else or (b) the goal will be ultimately unreachable and you 2will go through life frustrated. This is because Go is so deep you will never exhaust all the possibilities. So best to just enjoy it one day at the time rather than chase after some specific goal. But again - this is my opinion only, applicable to me, not some general rule.

12. Nope. I can be introspective, and so I have thought about issues like some of the above a lot in the past, even before I learned Go. Its nothing new to me.

Hope this helps.
Although not sure in what.
I am really curious where this is going.

It seems you also like Japanese Go. So which is your favorite player there. These days I think I am crazy of Iyama Yuta. I wonder is there something wrong with me.

Kirby · **#52**

xed_over wrote:

...

But I've been talking primarily about professional players/teachers who the KBA have been sending out to help spread Baduk around the world.

Well, I personally don't have enough data to know if the claim about professionals is correct, other than oren's example to the contrary, but your sentence's subject was "the Koreans", so perhaps you can understand my interpretation of your statement :-)

I have had some exposure to Korean pros, but in most cases, they were speaking in Korean, so it made sense to use Korean words. The one counterexample that I can think of to your claim is a workshop I attended with Myungwan and Kotzegi. They were quite willing to use Japanese terms to explain things to the audience.

Perhaps there are some pros that do this and some that don't.

often · **#53**

1. Do you prefer playing black or white. And why?
No Preference, mostly because by the middle game it doesn't matter really.

2. Do you have a favorite opening as black?
Nope, i suck at them all and i grow tired of playing the same thing over and over anyway.

3. How did you learn your favorite opening?
see above

4. What is your favorite language for Go?
Preferably chinese, especially for learning. There are more nuanced expressions in chinese than there are in english.

5. What is your favorite Go term and what does it mean?
I don't really memorize go terms. The ones i really understand are just joseki, fuseki, and endgame. Other than that i just say weak, strong, not effective, and "gonna die".

6. Do you prefer complex games or simple games?
Complex, more to learn and more to do.

7. Do you feel tsumego is critical to improving?
No. My teacher quoted a pro who once said if 10 is your total effort in go, 9 should be playing.

8. If you could become a professional in any country(the ones offering pro certification), which one would you choose and why?
America, so i could be one of the firsts, and probably cause it's easier, haha.

9. Is Go your favorite hobby?
No, but it's amazing how i haven't grown tired of it.

10. As a DDK, who helped your game improve the most if you can remember?
Bob Felice of the Dallas Go Club. He was most willing to play, teach, and deal with me.

11. Is the journey more important than the end or the start? Basically, do you feel there is more value in gaining strength than simply having it?
Strength is relative. The journey is a thing of perspective. As you get stronger the concept of strength is so ambiguous with all that you have to learn you stop worrying about it. These days it's just things i know and things i don't rather than strong and weak.

12. Do you feel answering these questions helped you learn more about yourself and others? Explain.
Nope, I've gone through this stuff countless times while playing and trying to improve.

A Series Of Questions

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