Fuseki in 2-stone handicap game

emeraldemon · #1

I played white in this game and had some problems with my fuseki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 tennuki to play pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . 5 . . b . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

felt bigger to me than responding to the upper left, since a and b are somewhat miai.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm8 Where to play here? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . O . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So this is my question: where would you play next as white? My feeling was that the single black stone on top was vulnerable, so I played this way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm13 My moves in game. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . X . 1 . . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . 4 . 3 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This feels bad for white to me: coming back to protect at :w17:

lets black get ahead in the jumps. The two white stones have no development and serve little purpose, and white's upper left group is solid but nearly sealed in. It's early, but it feels like what hasn't done anything to fight the handicap and is getting pushed around a bit. Any suggestions?

jts · #2

I think you have two options, depending on how aggressive you want to be.

The steady-as-she-goes option is :w13:

at f15 (or even b17). Now W is safe and h17 isn't doing anything. h15 is bad and l17 seems slow for B - if B plays either of those, W is happy to move on to the other corners. (Think of it the other way: if B plays h15 or l17 directly, you thank your lucky stars for a slow move and don't worry about the fearful power of B's followup at h17, do you?) If B abandons h15 to reinforce a corner, then it becomes a good target down the road.

F15 puts more pressure on black to prove that h17 makes good flow, but b17 applies an equal amount of pressure to prove that h17 is efficient in terms of points - he's giving up a lot, what can he get for it?

The other option is just to tenuki and see what B expects to accomplish with a follow-up move. That would aim to provoke a fight where B has a positional advantage, and W has the advantage of being W.

I'm not saying your way is wrong, though. You can just leave the top side tense and turn to other areas. But it seems like more of a handicap strategy, trusting your handling of the k15/17 stones won't be too burdensome.

Tommie · #3

1. diagram:
A and B do not feel miai in my opinion, as when Black takes the corner with A,
white has to extend to B for safety, yet without further benefits.
You could add a C - the 2-point extension of black's kakari
and state 'if white A, then Black B - hence White A is sente'
and imply that you could still play your desired white 7 in below right corner.

2nd diagram:
B10 feels too tight,
same the W13 afterwards.

Consider white's safety + profit + attack options on left black 2 stones after a white B17.

last diagram: Connecting under with white H18 connects 2 otherwise weak groups
and is therefor something I would really consider.

(I write this while I do not have the good option to see both your diagrams AND my comment).

Last but not least: Giving 2 stones is not much handicap, you give one move and hope for a sum of quite small mistakes {or 1 gote} etc.

emeraldemon · #4

So maybe I should have just played this way?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm13 Take corner $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O . . O . X . . 2 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Seems like white is doing OK in this diagram, :b16:

could secure the top or pincer, but either way is probably OK for white.

Magicwand · #5

you can not play his game and expect to win.
i suggest below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 tennuki to play pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . 5 . . b . . . . 7 . . . . . | $$ | . 6 . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · #6

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm13 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . X . 1 . . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . 4 . 3 . . 7 . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White can play :w19:

, but White is not happy. As you indicate, :w17:

is unsatisfactory, a kind of pushing from behind.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm13 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . X . 1 . . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 4 . 3 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Surely the jump attachment is better.

But

violates Jowa's advice: Don't run.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm13 Don't run $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . O . X . 1 . . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 6 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 7 . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Keima for attack, says the proverb. This looks better.

However, the :bc:

looks helpful to Black. It is a result of the exchange, :wc:

-

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . O . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So one thought is to pincer with :w11:

. However, then :b12:

looks good, threatening White's base.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . B . . 5 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Another thought is to prepare the pincer with :w11:

. Note the two space pincer, which makes it harder for Black to sacrifice the :bc:

stone.

But the problem is that :b10:

presents difficulties for White. White should dictate the pace, if possible.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So Magicwand's suggestion is good. If you look at ancient games, where pros gave handicaps to pros, you see this kind of early approach to a 4-4 stone. Let White set the pace.

Bill Spight · #7

emeraldemon wrote:

So maybe I should have just played this way?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm13 Take corner $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O . . O . X . . 2 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Seems like white is doing OK in this diagram, :b16:

could secure the top or pincer, but either way is probably OK for white.

No, White's play is dull.

Phoenix · #8

I don't know who Black is, but he/she seems to have a better sense for the opening than you do.

Are you sure the handicap is warranted? :scratch:

illluck · #9

Other than very clear tactial mistakes or stones very closely together, how can you tell if someone is or isn't 2 stones stronger by the first 20 moves?

I can't help but feel that too much is being read (no pun intended) into these few opening moves. In 2 stone games I tend to just play normally and hope to gradually catch up as the game progresses. Then again, my opening is pretty terrible.

emeraldemon · **#10**

Phoenix wrote:

I don't know who Black is, but he/she seems to have a better sense for the opening than you do.

Are you sure the handicap is warranted? :scratch:

It was a DGS game with the handicap automatically determined. Actually we are now the same rating, so maybe I should offer an even game and see how I do.

Here's the full game, not exactly my best ever but maybe you want to see my other mistakes also:

jts · **#11**

Bill Spight wrote:

No, White's play is dull.

Say more! I didn't recommend that exact sequence, but inducing :b14:

@ l17 was my basic idea, so I want to hear more about why it sucks.

Dull as in loses points, or dull as in unenterprising?

And dull relative to the version where you changed :w7:

(MW's suggestion), the version where you change :w11:

, or the version where you change :w15:

? (Because the main question I was thinking about was the placement of :w13:

. I understand why the first two are more interesting than the dull variation.)

Bill Spight · **#12**

jts wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

No, White's play is dull.

Say more! I didn't recommend that exact sequence, but inducing :b14:

@ l17 was my basic idea, so I want to hear more about why it sucks.

Dull as in loses points, or dull as in unenterprising?

Both. The two often go together. If White's job with no handicap is to keep Black from having an easy opening, how much more is that the case when giving two stones. Allowing Black to make a base on the top side gives Black an easy opening. And I actually think that White has lost around 4 pts.

mitsun · **#13**

There sure are a lot of harsh reviewers here

My take on the fuseki:
:w7:

tenuki was fine, treating C17 and J17 as miai.
:w13:

pincer attack was too early -- the black H17 stone is not that important.
Switching to an approach of the UR corner would be my first choice, but playing b17 is fine, especially if B promises to respond at L17. I do not think this is too dull.

Bill Spight · **#14**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm13 Slow $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O . . O . B . . 2 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It is true that :b14:

in this diagram is slow. But it makes a base for the :bc:

stone and avoids complications when Black has the advantage.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm13 Right side $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O . . O . B . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The right side looks like the hottest part of the board now, and :b14:

in this diagram may be best.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm13 Top right corner $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O . . O . B . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The large knight's extension here also looks good, and is more solid than the farther extension.

Both of these options treat the :bc:

stone lightly. Why can they do that? Because it has forced White to protect with . That says it all, doesn't it? In a two stone game Black has pushed White around.

Splatted · **#15**

Bill Spight wrote:

Both of these options treat the :bc:

stone lightly. Why can they do that? Because it has forced White to protect with . That says it all, doesn't it? In a two stone game Black has pushed White around.

Actually I'd appreciate it if you said more. It may have been black's choice to make the exchange but that doesn't necessarily mean the exchange favours black, so why do you think this is a case of black pushing white around instead of white letting black dig his own grave? (or anything in between)

The situation's a little beyond me but I've often made a similar exchange thinking it was reasonable for both players.

Bill Spight · **#16**

Splatted wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

Both of these options treat the :bc:

stone lightly. Why can they do that? Because it has forced White to protect with . That says it all, doesn't it? In a two stone game Black has pushed White around.

Actually I'd appreciate it if you said more. It may have been black's choice to make the exchange but that doesn't necessarily mean the exchange favours black, so why do you think this is a case of black pushing white around instead of white letting black dig his own grave? (or anything in between)

The situation's a little beyond me but I've often made a similar exchange thinking it was reasonable for both players.

First, assuming that Black can indeed treat the :bc:

stone lightly -- something that all commentators who have addressed the question seem to agree on --, then if White attacks the :bc:

stone soon, Black can gladly throw it away. What grave?

Second, on the same assumption, the :bc:

stone was played as kikashi. Now, there are some kikashi, such as a peep, which almost require a response, but that was not the case here. White could have pincered the :bc:

stone instead of securing the corner. White took a force that he did not need to. Now, if that had in turn forced Black to make a base for the :bc:

stone, then we could have regarded :w13:

as gote no sente. But, by assumption, that is not the case. That means that we regard :w13:

as kikasare. IOW, White got pushed around.

mitsun · **#17**

I think I am with Splatted on this one. It is true that W treated the B approach as a threat and felt compelled to defend the corner, so you could say that W got pushed around, but the exchange might still be good for W. Not all kikashi are good or profitable. A peep is usually good, because the opponent is required to connect on a worthless dame. The situation here is quite different -- B exchanged a move of dubious future value (as most reviewers agree?) for a move worth 20 points of immediate profit.

Splatted · **#18**

Bill Spight wrote:

Splatted wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

Both of these options treat the :bc:

stone lightly. Why can they do that? Because it has forced White to protect with . That says it all, doesn't it? In a two stone game Black has pushed White around.

Actually I'd appreciate it if you said more. It may have been black's choice to make the exchange but that doesn't necessarily mean the exchange favours black, so why do you think this is a case of black pushing white around instead of white letting black dig his own grave? (or anything in between)

The situation's a little beyond me but I've often made a similar exchange thinking it was reasonable for both players.

First, assuming that Black can indeed treat the :bc:

stone lightly -- something that all commentators who have addressed the question seem to agree on --, then if White attacks the :bc:

stone soon, Black can gladly throw it away. What grave?

Second, on the same assumption, the :bc:

stone was played as kikashi. Now, there are some kikashi, such as a peep, which almost require a response, but that was not the case here. White could have pincered the :bc:

stone instead of securing the corner. White took a force that he did not need to. Now, if that had in turn forced Black to make a base for the :bc:

stone, then we could have regarded :w13:

as gote no sente. But, by assumption, that is not the case. That means that we regard :w13:

as kikasare. IOW, White got pushed around.

Sorry I didn't see this reply earlier.

I get that black got a probably useful light stone in sente, but it's not like he got it for free. White got to settle his group, make points in the corner and weaken black's left hand group, so why do you think black's move is worth so much more than whites?

emeraldemon · **#19**

So it seems there are two questions. One is where white should play :w13:

, and the consensus seems pretty clear that the pincer I played was suboptimal, and taking the corner may be the best choice at that point. Question #2 is whether white has misplayed prior to :w13:

. Bill and Magicwand say yes, pointing to problems as early as :w7:

, whereas mitsun and maybe splatted seem to think those early moves were OK at least.

Does that about sum it up?

Bill Spight · **#20**

emeraldemon wrote:

So it seems there are two questions. One is where white should play :w13:

, and the consensus seems pretty clear that the pincer I played was suboptimal, and taking the corner may be the best choice at that point. Question #2 is whether white has misplayed prior to :w13:

. Bill and Magicwand say yes, pointing to problems as early as :w7:

, whereas mitsun and maybe splatted seem to think those early moves were OK at least.

Does that about sum it up?

My main point is that White let Black set the pace in a two stone game, and let Black get an easy opening. Magicwand's suggestion for :w7:

is good, but I would not exactly call not doing so a misplay. As for a pincer at :w13:

, I like the idea, and do not like the kikasare.

Gotta run.

Fuseki in 2-stone handicap game

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