Mr. Dinerchtein says that 3-3 joseki isn't really considered joseki anymore because it's an unequal exchange, but I also don't like this "joseki" for partly the same reason (also White is threatened to be sealed in):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ . , . . . X X , O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

So supposing you could teach only one 3-3 and one 5-4 joseki to the student which two josekis would you choose in this case (keeping in mind that you don't want to teach him a potentially inferior variation, regardless of how simple the sequence may be)?

5-3 (doubles as sansan, actually)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . 2 . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Sansan:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 4 . . . . . O . . |
$$ . , . . . 2 . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Opps - 5-4, not 5-3:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 4 . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

That one's in the spirit of 5-4 josekis (at least the ones that settle). But today it seems taking territory is more popular:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . 5 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 3 1 2 . |
$$ . , . . . . X , O 6 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

To be fair, this is the way it looks because many times the 5-4 / 3-4 pattern arises because white has the 3-4 first and then tenukis after the high approach. Depending on the opening, it may still be a territorial style opening. We even see white tenuki after , which was popular in games of Cho U, who had a penchant for early approaches.

What do you think of this one, which is still played?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . X O . O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ . , . . X X X X O O . |
$$ . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I think if you're going to start with the 5-4, a plan like this is probably in the spirit, but you have to have the rest of the board in a position to support it. It's worth teaching and explaining that the right side is open for white.

In your example, consider this tewari:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 2 4 . . . |
$$ . , . . . 5 1 , O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . a b . |
$$ . . . . . . . 7 . 8 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

elsewhere. Usually, would be at 'a'. in this tewari would seem soft, as we know that in the 5-4 variation, white has the option of tenuki instead of , even though black 'b' would be a good follow-up.

So it wouldn't shock me if today someone thought it was good for white.

Thanks snorri. I was aware of these ideas when I made my post, and I have some beliefs as to why these are played. But that's not really the focus of this thread so I won't get into it : )

P.S. For your question, I don't like that joseki for White either. And that one is actually played less than the joseki in discussion. Can you guess why?

As a beginner i just remember moyo games. i used to take the star points, the other guy used to take star points. (they were marked on the board, they must be important!!! )

The 10 josekis (includes a variation) i think a beginner should know would be:

1. 3-3 invasion of a 4-4 stone.
   
   Click Here To Show Diagram Code

   [go]$$Bc joseki1
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 8 6 . . . . |
$$ . . . 9 7 5 4 2 . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 3 0 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

   
   

   Click Here To Show Diagram Code

   [go]$$Bcm11 joseki1 cont'd
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ . . . X X X O O 2 . |
$$ , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

   
   
2. knights move approach to a 4-4 stone, replied with a one space jump.
   
   Click Here To Show Diagram Code

   [go]$$Bc joseki2
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ 7 . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ , . . . 3 . 1 . 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

   
   
3. knights move approach to a 4-4 stone being replied with a knights move.
   
   Click Here To Show Diagram Code

   [go]$$Bc joseki3
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 3 . . 5 . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 . 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

   
   
4. At 12k i learned the following and went this is awesome!
   
   Click Here To Show Diagram Code

   [go]$$Bc joseki4
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ , . . . a . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

   
   
5. I never saw a 3-4 stone in the opening until i was 15k and learned how to properly approach it around 13k. Didnt learn any joseki of the 3-4 immediately but later learned the following one.
   
   Click Here To Show Diagram Code

   [go]$$Bc joseki5
$$ ------------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . 8 . . . . 4 3 5 . . . |
$$ . . , . . 6 . 2 , 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

   
   
6. But the first 3-4 joseki i would teach a beginner would be:
   
   Click Here To Show Diagram Code

   [go]$$Bc joseki6
$$ ------------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 8 . . . 4 3 5 . . . |
$$ . . a . . . 6 2 , 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

   
   
   I learned the one space low pincer to the knights move approach of a 4-4 stone and corner dive joseki at 10k.
   
7. did not know that the hane was a mistake (variation), learned the punishment (the descent variation). then learned the joseki.
   
   1. joseki
      
      Click Here To Show Diagram Code

      [go]$$Bc joseki7
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 6 4 0 . |
$$ , . . . . 7 1 5 8 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 9 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

      
      

      Click Here To Show Diagram Code

      [go]$$Bcm11 joseki7 cont'd
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 2 . O O O . |
$$ , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

   2. variation
      
      Can also, substitute or include the variation where white plays the 2nd line hane instead of the descent.
      

      Click Here To Show Diagram Code

      [go]$$Bc joseki 7 variation. a and b miai.
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 O O 2 . |
$$ , . . . . a X X b . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

8. joseki where black blocks the other side.
   
   Click Here To Show Diagram Code

   [go]$$Bc joseki8
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 5 4 . . |
$$ . X . . . . . 1 6 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 2 8 . |
$$ . . . . . . 9 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

9. the attach and extend joseki.
   
   Click Here To Show Diagram Code

   [go]$$Bc joseki 9
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . 9 . 1 7 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 3 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , 8 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I rarely saw anything other than the 4-4 until i became an sdk, hence the large number of 4-4 josekis. If i saw any other point in the opening, i would just wing it.

The only joseki i know for the 3-3 is the shoulder hit.
The 4-5, i only know the one where black plays the knights move. Both of which, i just learned, are not that great for the approach-er .
The 3-5, i currently like the 4-5 approach but idk how that would go down with a beginner.

For a beginner or even a ddk i think playing is more important than learning joseki. (Not that anyone has suggested the opposite.)

For the 3-3, 4-5 and 3-5 (and also, for the 4-4 and 3-4) i suggest playing it for a few games and then reviewing them with a stronger player and learning the appropriate joseki.

(All diagrams created at http://hiddema.nl/diagrammer/ . Thank you Herman )

As a beginner often plays handicap games, I'd propose the following.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . X . . . 4 . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 3 1 . . |
$$ . . . . 7 . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . X . . . . . X 6 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

is a big assumption.

There are certainly people who say that "there are no joseki in large stone handicap games" because equal results mean one side loses.

It may be wrong in the beginner joseki collection, which stands for a sequences where both players get an even result. Ok... granted.

The concept of gaining profit while attacking and not being merely defensive when having supporting stones nearby in handicap games is important for beginners to understand, though.

I disagree. White makes up the difference in a handicap game by taking advantage of accumulated small errors by black. There is nothing wrong with playing joseki in such games. Black may very well play them correctly but select the wrong variation for the situation, or black may play perfect joseki and make a reading error in a later fight.

_________________
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).

I've seen two different schools of thought on handicap play for white. One is the, play fairly close to standard and wait for the inevitable mistakes to appear. The other is to do your best to create situations for those mistakes to occur.

Both seem to work well.

I agree with this as being a good way for white to play. I merely meant that joseki are supposed to give a balanced result, but the result in a handicap game is not balanced because black has an overwhelming advantage on the board already, so against a player of equal strength, it doesn't work.

Sure. But why would you be giving a handicap to a player of equal strength?

_________________
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).

None. Learning joseki at the beginner level will stint creativity and impede pattern exposure.

In handicap teaching games as white, I slightly prefer the strategy/concept DrStraw describes--playing "normal" moves without too many overplays, and winning based on black's cumulative errors. On the other hand, of several games I've played against professionals (with my playing black, of course), none of them has adopted this strategy. They don't play "crazy" moves, but they are aggressive and only occasionally play out a joseki early in the game. This is also the strategy Guo Juan advocates for white--as discussed in her recent online lecture "Handicap for white lecture 1."

Based on my experience, it is easier to win as white with this later strategy. You could argue that, if white can't win playing "normal" moves, then the handicap is too high. I don't really agree or disagree--they are just two different schools of thought.

Heh, for someone who skipped the Go Congress in their home town, you repeated Maeda Ryo's lecture perfectly.

Generally he said that kids shouldn't learn joseki from books or other people, but adults will take the shortcut and it can be ok. We don't have the time or brain development to learn the right way.

Here's a game with three josekis a beginner should know, plus a bonus shimari. As an added treat, ask yourself on move 56 where Cho busts in to Takemiya's moyo, and then watch him improbably live through move 117.

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

Hello everyone, I am a novice to the game and recently I played a game where my opponent answered an approach to the 4-4 point with an attachment that is the beginning of a joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . 8 . X 6 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 5 . .|
$$ . . . . . . 4 2 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 3 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 7 . .|[/go]

But after my continuation with , he did not follow as I expected:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 4 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 2 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 3 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

So, being a beginner, I quite didn't know what could be a profitable response of mine in this case. What would be the line of thinking of you, more experienced players? Also, is move a good variation, in the sense that it quickly prevents lefting a cut point and starts building a wall facing outside?

Thank you in advance for any comments about this.

Hi Matheus, you have already profited, because makes an inefficient shape for B.

Possible continuation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$-----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . , . . . . X . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 4 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 2 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 3 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 5 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Or, if B is building something very big in the center, and it's more urgent to reduce it than the corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$-----------------------
$$ . . . . . ? . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . ? . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . ? . . . . .|
$$ . , . . . ? . X . . .|
$$ ? ? ? ? ? ? . 4 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 2 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . 5 3 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

But if the board is wide open as in your original diagram, then just the tiger's mouth is OK.