How to get better at Go?

WhlteLotus · #1

Hi guys,

So I'm still new to Go. I know the rules and can play a game, but I SUCK. Is there anything I can do to improve?

For example, in Chess, we study tactics A LOT, is there somthing I can do that is similar in Go? What should I study to get better and not get crushed all the time?

Is there any free exercises online? Any free learning software?

leichtloeslich · #2

Quote:

in Chess, we study tactics A LOT, is there somthing I can do that is similar in Go?

Yes, it's called "tsumego" or "life and death problems" and there's a lot of these on the internet.

http://senseis.xmp.net/?Tsumego
http://tsumego.tasuki.org/
http://www.goproblems.com/

If you're very new to the game I'd recommend the "graded go problems for beginners" series (they're books and not freely available on the internet (not legally, anyway)).
It starts at the very bottom and becomes challenging quite fast.
Of course you should also do other problem sets in parallel, but these are very high quality from a didactic point of view.

Oh, and of course apart from tactics you should also play games regularly. (I guess that's a nobrainer, but I thought I'd mention it.)

Welcome to the forums, btw.

oren · #3

Here are some more.

http://gochild2009.appspot.com/

SoDesuNe · #4

I can really recommend goproblems.com for easy and intermediate problems - as a free source. You could try 20 problems a day, ranging from 30k to 15k. Just uncheck "Joseki" and "Fuseki" when searching for problems, those are most of the times pretty bad.

If you get stronger and become more serious, I would definitely buy some books, too. You can follow the link in my signature, where I made a list of books suited for each level (just my opinion).

Uzziel · #5

WhlteLotus wrote:

Hi guys,

So I'm still new to Go. I know the rules and can play a game, but I SUCK. Is there anything I can do to improve?

For example, in Chess, we study tactics A LOT, is there somthing I can do that is similar in Go? What should I study to get better and not get crushed all the time?

Is there any free exercises online? Any free learning software?

Learning go is completely different from learning chess imo. I have played chess my whole life, and
opening, mid game, as well as endgame were considerably easier to learn because chess has less possible moves, and less possible outcomes when compared to Go.

It is hard to understand this until you hit the wall and realize... (im not going to stop getting beat overnight or in a few weeks or months or years). Go strategy is completely different when compared to chess strategy as it is not as easily conceptualized. Personally I am still struggling with this myself.

I have been where you are (blew myself out), and let me tell you that there is no quick way other than slow, steady, diligent learning with Continued play (winning or not but you better believe you are going to lose ALOT).

Basically... You are going to be crushed repeatedly for a long time.

On a side note though...

You will get better if you are persistent

(At least that is my hope for myself

)

I would also start learning on a 9 x 9 board or a 13 x 13 board.

Some places to start:

http://playgo.to/iwtg/en/
http://www.youtube.com/user/gocommentary
http://www.allaboutgo.com/lessons/beginner/

I would find a good intro book to Go as well.
If you use the search on the forums you can find good
beginner books for the starting go player.

judicata · #6

I endorse all of the suggestions above. Particularly, if you don't mind spending a little money, Graded Go Problems for Beginners volume 1 and 2. Note that volume 3 and 4 will probably be above your level for awhile--the word "beginners" in the title has confused some.

I also very strongly recommend that you play a bunch of games. There is a good proverb--"Lose your first 50 games as quickly as possible." There's a good summary of that proverb on Sensei's Library.

jts · #7

In terms of concrete suggestions for getting better, I agree with what everyone else has said. http://playgo.to/iwtg/en/ is great for making sure you have all the "duh" stuff down, playing (a.k.a. losing) lots of games is the quickest way to get better, tsumego are great, if you're going to buy books get Graded Go Problems for Beginners first.

The only suggestions I would disagree with slightly are GoProblems.com and watching videos. Personally I found the layout distracting, the quality of the problems and solutions uneven, and the temptation to peek before mentally checking my solution strong. Your mileage may vary. Videos I think have a fairly low payout in terms of what you learn per minute.

In terms of comparing chess and go, I would say it goes something like this:

Chess tactics problems are comparable to tsumego in terms of their ubiquity and importance to building better reading skills (I think "calculation" is what chess players call reading?). But chess tactics problems are more comparable to tesuji problems in terms of spotting clever tactical combinations and figuring out how to put tactical pressure on the opponent's position.

Chess mating problems are comparable to tsumego in terms of preparing you for the occasional dramatic, game-clinching coup. (In fact tsumego is a back-formation from "tsumeshogi", i.e. mating problems for Japanese chess.) But the simpler mating problems that train you to apply the known endgames are perhaps more comparable to go's own endgame problems, which also rely more on dogged thoroughness and knowing when to risks than other parts of the game.

karaklis · #8

At 25k the best way to improve is to play a lot

Once you have advanced to the SDK area, studying life and death as well as tesuji will be the path to the fastest improvement.

Free exercise for beginners including a course can be obtained at 321go

emeraldemon · #9

Here are some websites I think everyone should know:

Sensei's Library is a Go Wiki with lots of good information: http://senseis.xmp.net/

http://www.gokgs.com/ is a free go server with lots of players of all strengths

http://www.dragongoserver.net/ is a turn-based go server, good for playing games a few moves at a time

Other things worth looking into:

Go teaching ladder, get your games reviewed by stronger players: http://gtl.xmp.net/

http://goproblems.com/ is a free problem website with problems contributed by users (so varying quality)

http://gochild2009.appspot.com/ is another problem site, which logs your progress unlike goproblems.com

jts · **#10**

Mods, merge the double post perhaps?

[admin]
As requested. -JB
[/admin]

WhlteLotus · **#11**

Hey guys,

So first off, sorry about the double post...not sure how that happened.

Second, thank you SO much for all of your suggestions. I now have a clearer picture as to what I need to do to improve!! Before I was completely lost, but now things seem much clearer, thank you for that!!

I will try all of your suggestions as well as buy some books

tekesta · **#12**

In chess and shôgi (Japanese chess), there are "puzzles", which are known to shôgi players as tsume. In Go, there are tsumego, which is the name for puzzles depicting Go board positions, whether local or global (whole-board). Doing Go puzzles in different skill areas - life & death, tesuji ("clever moves"), opening, middle game, jôseki ("textbook plays"; these exchanges ensure a local advantage to each side and usually occur near the corners of the Go board), and endgame - will help you to improve your analytical ability in the game. As little as 15 minutes of tsumego on a daily basis is effective and, of course, the more, the better. If you concentrate on cultivating your life & death and tesuji skills, other areas will become easier; jôseki should be studied only after developing a good command of these two skills, since they determine how the exchange is played out. In addition, the global position must be taken into account when selecting a jôseki.

According to this article from the Turtlemechy blog,

http://turtlemechy.wordpress.com/2013/02/25/how-to-get-extremely-good-at-go/

the endgame is to be studied most. The middle game is to be studied as well, but most close games are decided by exchanges in the endgame, so the endgame is important. The opening is important in Go, but not as influential upon the course of a game as openings in Chess. It is possible to play an excellent opening and do badly in the middle game and endgame. The games of Lee Changho, a 9th degree Korean professional Go player, often exhibit this phenomenon; he is best known for his exceptional endgame skills.

As you gain more experience in Go, you will find that there are different ways to play the game. Just as Chess players tend to choose between power-based playing styles and finesse-based playing styles, Go players usually choose between playing for outward influence and playing for territory. The former consists of acquiring territory as a result of middle-game fighting, whereas the latter consists of playing one's stones on the 3rd line of the board to begin establishing territorial claims to convert into actual territory; the edge of the Go board serves as a natural barrier against which to build a living (uncapturable) group. Each playing style has its disadvantages. Playing for influence - often indicated by plays on the star points that are on the 4th line or even plays on the 5th line - means that the opponent will often acquire territory, so good fighting skills are needed to make use of friendly groups already present in the center and prevent the opponent from creating additional territory in the center region of the board after an invasion and capturing your groups. Playing for territory - usually indicated by opening plays on the 3rd and/or 4th lines - allows for easily established groups, but access to the center can be reduced, so good fighting skills are needed to invade the opponent's môyô (territorial framework that represents a claim and not yet solid territory) and reduce his gains in the center.

In reality, most Go players apply varied combinations of both styles. Go is a very fluid game, so it helps to have familiarity with both styles to allow for a flexible approach when playing. Lee Changho, Kobayashi Kôichi, and Yu Bin are some professional players that tend toward territory-oriented styles of play. Cho Hun-hyun, Awaji Shûzô, and Takemiya Masaki are some players who prefer influence-oriented styles. As well, you will find that some players, such as Rui Naiwei and some Chinese and Korean players, are fond of middle game fighting, whereas others, as most Japanese players, prefer more peaceful games. As for extremes, there are the ancient Chinese players, such as those mentioned in the Dang Hu games, that played games with lots of violent exchanges, and historical Japanese players like Hon'inbô Dôsaku, from the late 1600s, and Shûsaku (of Hikaru no Go fame) from the middle of the 19th century, who played relatively peaceful games closer in form to today's playing styles. For beginners, these last two players are definitely worth studying. Go Seigen is another player worth studying, as he has had enormous influence on how Go is played today. Along with Kitani Minoru, a Japanese player of the 20th century, he is one of the founders of the shin fuseki (new opening sequences) style of play. This style is the precursor of today's most common playing styles.

In Chess one keeps an eye on how much material one has available to deliver checkmate against the opponent's king. In Go, one keeps an eye on the balance of territory between Black and White. The Go board is larger, so counting accurately during a game of Go takes some practice. However, once you acquire this ability it is easier to make better informed plays.

I am not an avid chess player these days, but I notice that replaying chess game records helps me to picture what happens in a game of chess. In conjunction with chess puzzles to train my analytical ability, replaying game records helps me to see how tactics come together on the board. Replaying a couple of professional Go games daily will help you to accustom your mind to what occurs in a game of Go. As well, you will get to see how individual techniques come together. When you are more experienced in Go, you will be able to analyze the reasons for each move. For the moment, though, simply observe what happens as you replay the record and apply the ideas therein to your own games. Of course there will be lost games as well as won ones, but by degrees your understanding of Go will increase and your way of playing will become clearer and more logical.

SoDesuNe · **#13**

tekesta wrote:

http://turtlemechy.wordpress.com/2013/02/25/how-to-get-extremely-good-at-go/

I agree with some of the points the author made in the first third of the blog post. Especially that brute-forcing Tsumegos is wrong and that openings are far overrated compared to the endgame. After that I feel it gets murky quite fast.

How strong is the author and how far did he follow his own advice?

Mike Novack · **#14**

First I need to ask you a question. Is your specification "free" meant as a philosophical opposition to software created for sale (so you will refuse to use it) or an unwillingness to pay for software (in which case you would use if you got it for free).

If it is the latter situation, then as a beginner you have a wider range of options.

For example (and this is just an example) you could download the free trial version of Many Faces of Go. That won't play any stronger than 18 kyu and it only includes the easy set of problems, etc. but for a beginner that is plenty. Especially if the "play against" mode includes the option for the machine to explain why it made this or that move. At this level the program would be using its AI engine (not MCTS) and if the randomize option is off would always make the same move in the same situation (so if you recorded a game you could get the machine to replay it this times explaining "why"). And while the joseki tutor won't help with the overplay josekis used in handicap games, still useful to get you started -- though perhaps learning joseki too early without any grasp of the principles involved not a good idea.

There are fundamentals (like in chess) which you need to grasp. But don't expect agreement of advice about which books to get and keep in mind that people differ on how well they do or don't learn from books (are you a "book person"?).

Some of the other "for sale" programs might offer free trial versions that are similar.

tchan001 · **#15**

Sensei's Library beginner pages section would probably be a great place for you to explore.
http://senseis.xmp.net/?PagesForBeginners

tekesta · **#16**

SoDesuNe wrote:

tekesta wrote:

http://turtlemechy.wordpress.com/2013/02/25/how-to-get-extremely-good-at-go/

I agree with some of the points the author made in the first third of the blog post. Especially that brute-forcing Tsumegos is wrong and that openings are far overrated compared to the endgame. After that I feel it gets murky quite fast.

How strong is the author and how far did he follow his own advice?

The author of the article posts mostly mathematics-related material, but apparently no rank or Go server is posted, so I'm lost as to how to ascertain his/her playing strength. The info in the bottom ½ of the article does appear to be nonsense, but the author does make it clear that if anyone wants to acquire the playing strength of a pro, an exceptional amount of time and effort will have to be invested. Which is why most pros began learning Go when they were children or adolescents; it's much easier to learn complex things at that age, especially in a fun and challenging atmosphere.

I have been applying for myself the advice presented in the article and my Go abilities seem to have strengthened some. I replay game records on a regular basis and do life & death problems. What I need to do more of, though, is play actual games.

Bill Spight · **#17**

tekesta wrote:

In Go, there are tsumego, which is the name for puzzles depicting Go board positions, whether local or global (whole-board).

Small point. Most whole board problems are not tsumego.

Bill Spight · **#18**

http://turtlemechy.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... ood-at-go/

It's bullshit.

Not that there may not be something useful there.

But it's bullshit.

skydyr · **#19**

Bill Spight wrote:

http://turtlemechy.wordpress.com/2013/02/25/how-to-get-extremely-good-at-go/

It's bullshit.

Not that there may not be something useful there.

But it's bullshit.

I got the impression that the author is basically accepting as an axiom that the closer you are to the end of the game, the more important or fundamental it is, and extrapolating from there.

topazg · **#20**

Bill Spight wrote:

http://turtlemechy.wordpress.com/2013/02/25/how-to-get-extremely-good-at-go/

It's bullshit.

Not that there may not be something useful there.

But it's bullshit.

Not only do I complete agree, but you made me actually laugh out loud, so you get a like and a comment

My advice is to accompany any tsumego and go problems with playing, and more playing, and more playing. If something goes disastrously wrong, review a little to see you could have tried instead to see if you could have achieved a better result, but don't go overboard. Just pick one or two bad local results in a game to play around with, then go play another game.

How to get better at Go?

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