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 Post subject: Which Joseki Does This Come From?
Post #1 Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:44 am 
Lives in gote

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This is a position from a book I'm studying. So far all the positions have come from natural/common situations and joseki deviations, but I'm not sure where this one comes from.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 Unknown diagram
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , .
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . O X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]


My best guess for how part of the diagram come about is this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 6 9 . . . . . . .
$$ | . 7 5 8 0 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 1 . . . . . , .
$$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm11 Cont. 1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 1 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 2 X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]


I'm not sure how the others got there, except this is the result:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11 Cont. 1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , .
$$ | . . X O . 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . Y Q . 2 3 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]


BTW, the problem goes on the say that White continues with :wt: when she should have played A first. The question is, how does Black punish?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 Problem
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . .
$$ | . Q X O . . . . . , .
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . .
$$ | . . X O a O X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]


Answer:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 Solution
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . .
$$ | . O X O 5 . . . . , .
$$ | . . X O 7 X . . . . .
$$ | . . X O 2 O X . . . .
$$ | . 9 6 1 4 3 8 . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm10 Cont. 1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . .
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , .
$$ | . 5 X O X X 2 0 4 . .
$$ | 7 6 X O O O X 1 . . .
$$ | . X O 8 O 9 O 3 . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Which Joseki Does This Come From?
Post #2 Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:01 am 
Dies with sente

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my guess

Attachment:
dddr.png
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 Post subject: Re: Which Joseki Does This Come From?
Post #3 Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:56 am 
Oza
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MJK's line looks like a good guess. In GoGoD we do not see any games where this position occurs. My copy of the Igo Daijiten contains a couple of diagrams on the continuation when Black plays the atari at 8 in MJK's diagram. All the lines continue with Black 14 at 15 so we never arrive at the position shown. In actual play, as demonstrated by GoGoD, Black usually plays 8 at 15. On occasion Black plays 8 at 12 instead. There are 24 games with these two lines, played between 1927 and 2011.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Joseki Does This Come From?
Post #4 Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:37 am 
Lives in gote

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MJK wrote:
my guess

Attachment:
dddr.png

That looks reasonable -- although I think it's still a strange sequence -- thank-you.

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