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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Damezumari, anyone?
Post #1 Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:15 pm 
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Here is a nice problem I just ran across. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O . |
$$ . . X O O . . . |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Enjoy!

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

This post by Bill Spight was liked by: wineandgolover
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Offline moyoaji
 Post subject: Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Post #2 Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:57 pm 
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Is this it?

After extending one more black can still win the capturing race against the lower white 3 stones, but he can also capture the 3 on top. If white resists by trying to capture black, black can play this way and threaten to escape. If white insists then he can treat the 3 as a thrown in and kill white like this. White cannot block due to a shortage of liberties and then, after the capture and connecting back playing inside or putting the 3 white stones in atari are miai for killing white.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White failure
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O 5 7 |
$$ . . . X O 6 O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 8 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O 9 |
$$ . . . . . X O C |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


If white tries to resist like this, black just wins the capturing race. White can make 1 eye, but 1 eye does not a live white group make.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B More failure from white
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O 4 . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 . |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


EDIT: This seems to work and is even easier. White cannot capture 5 anyway; still not enough liberties. Nor can white push to atari black. Black just connects back.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black connects back and white still fails
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O 5 . |
$$ . . . X O 6 O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 7 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


EDIT2: Do want to note that white can start a ko. If he has a 40 point threat he might make this solution bad.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves


Last edited by moyoaji on Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline RBerenguel
 Post subject: Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Post #3 Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:19 am 
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moyoaji's solution above looks reasonable (I didn't completely read it because I don't want to spoil myself the "real" reading :)) but this in this problem the marked spot gives me feelings. Seems to not work, but anyway..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O . |
$$ . . X O O x . . |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

_________________
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Post #4 Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:17 pm 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O 5 . |
$$ . . . X O 7 O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 6 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Ko is not the answer. Black can kill. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline moyoaji
 Post subject: Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Post #5 Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:36 pm 
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Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w8: ko threat, :b9: responds
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O 5 . |
$$ . . . X O 7 0 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 6 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


If black has no threat how does he respond to this?

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Offline Splatted
 Post subject: Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Post #6 Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:24 pm 
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Universal go server handle: Splatted
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X a O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O b |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 . |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O 3 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Now a and b are miai right? This feels too simple so I guess I've overlooked something...
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Post #7 Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:29 pm 
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moyoaji wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w8: ko threat, :b9: responds
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O 5 . |
$$ . . . X O 7 0 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 6 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


If black has no threat how does he respond to this?


That depends on the rest of the board. Early in the game he should play elsewhere. Later he should just capture the three stones, which will probably be sente.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Post #8 Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:33 pm 
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Splatted wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X a O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O b |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 . |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O 3 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Now a and b are miai right? This feels too simple so I guess I've overlooked something...


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O . |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 4 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O 3 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

This post by Bill Spight was liked by: Splatted
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Post #9 Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:55 am 
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Well, nobody has found the solution yet, so here are the first two plays. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O . |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 . |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


:b1: is obviously a vital point. For one thing, it is where White would play to live.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O . |
$$ . . X O O 3 1 2 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


If :w2: is this hane, :b3: plainly kills.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Post #10 Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:20 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 7 O 6 . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 5 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Post #11 Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:59 am 
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@ Shaddy

What next? :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline moyoaji
 Post subject: Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Post #12 Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:04 pm 
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Shaddy wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 7 O 6 . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 5 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


I had considered that, but this wins for white.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm8 Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 |
$$ . . . X O 1 O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X 2 O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Post #13 Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:14 pm 
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moyoaji wrote:
Shaddy wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 7 O 6 . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 5 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


I had considered that, but this wins for white.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm8 Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 |
$$ . . . X O 1 O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X 2 O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Hint:

Try a different :b9: :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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 Profile  
 
Offline SoDesuNe
 Post subject: Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Post #14 Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:17 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1810
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Rank: KGS 1-dan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Var 1 - W dies
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O 5 |
$$ . . . X O 1 O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X 6 |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 3 |
$$ . . . . . X O 4 |
$$ . . . . . X O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm7 Var 1.1 - W dies
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X X |
$$ . . . X . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . , X 1 2 |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10 Var 1.2 - W dies
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O . |
$$ . . X O O O . 1 |
$$ . . X . . O . . |
$$ . . . X . O . O |
$$ . . . . , X O X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Var 2 - Better play of :w3: , W lives
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 |
$$ . . . X O 1 O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X 5 |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 4 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Var 2.1 - Better play of :w3: , W lives
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O . |
$$ . . X O O O . 9 |
$$ . . X . . O 7 O |
$$ . . . X . O 6 O |
$$ . . . . , X O X |
$$ . . . . . X O 8 |
$$ . . . . . X O X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Var 3 - W dies?
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 8 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O 6 |
$$ . . . . . X O 7 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Var 3.1 - W dies?
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 3 O . 2 |
$$ . . . X O . O X |
$$ . . X O O O X O |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X O O |
$$ . . . . . X O X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

_________________
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This post by SoDesuNe was liked by: Bill Spight
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Post #15 Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:00 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
SoDesuNe wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Var 1 - W dies
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O 5 |
$$ . . . X O 1 O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X 6 |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 3 |
$$ . . . . . X O 4 |
$$ . . . . . X O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm7 Var 1.1 - W dies
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X X |
$$ . . . X . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . , X 1 2 |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10 Var 1.2 - W dies
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O . |
$$ . . X O O O . 1 |
$$ . . X . . O . . |
$$ . . . X . O . O |
$$ . . . . , X O X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Var 2 - Better play of :w3: , W lives
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 |
$$ . . . X O 1 O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X 5 |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 4 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Var 2.1 - Better play of :w3: , W lives
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O . |
$$ . . X O O O . 9 |
$$ . . X . . O 7 O |
$$ . . . X . O 6 O |
$$ . . . . , X O X |
$$ . . . . . X O 8 |
$$ . . . . . X O X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Var 3 - W dies?
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 8 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O 6 |
$$ . . . . . X O 7 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Var 3.1 - W dies?
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 3 O . 2 |
$$ . . . X O . O X |
$$ . . X O O O X O |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X O O |
$$ . . . . . X O X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Hint:

Reconsider :b4: in variation 2. :)

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline moyoaji
 Post subject: Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Post #16 Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:12 pm 
Lives in sente
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Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Ah, here we go.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc :w5: captures, W dies
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 |
$$ . . . X O 1 O . |
$$ . . X O O O 7 6 |
$$ . . X . . O . 5 |
$$ . . . X . O 8 O |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O 4 |
$$ . . . . . X O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


A difficult problem, for sure. Lots of variations, but black can kill white without ko. 7 and 8 are miai.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

This post by moyoaji was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, Dusk Eagle
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Post #17 Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:29 am 
Honinbo

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The solution has been found, but it is spread over more than one post by more than one person. Not so easy, but a cool problem. :)

Solution below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O 6 . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 5 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


:b1: is a vital point, forcing :w2: . :b3: threatens to capture the White stones one the bottom, a snapback, and a ko. It does White no good to protect at :w6: now.

:b5: is excellent! It allows White to protect at :w6: and capture the five Black stones. It turns out that they are poison.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm7
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 1 O O 4 |
$$ . . . X O 2 O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X 6 |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O 3 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


:b7: is key, forcing White to fill the potential eye at :w8: in order to capture the Black stones. White is short of liberties otherwise.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm13
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O . |
$$ . . X O O O 2 1 |
$$ . . X . . O . O |
$$ . . . X . O 3 O |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O X |
$$ . . . . . X O X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


:b13: is a hammer blow. If :w14: ataris, :b15: takes away the potential second eye because of damezumari. :)

SoDesuNe found an interesting sacrifice for White leading to an under the stones play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm10 SoDesuNe's variation
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 |
$$ . . . X O O O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X 4 |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X O X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm14
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X X |
$$ . . . X . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . , X 1 2 |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm17
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O . |
$$ . . X O O O . 1 |
$$ . . X . . O . . |
$$ . . . X . O . O |
$$ . . . . , X O X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


But :b17: strikes at the vital point and kills.


Edit: SoDesuNe and xed_over have found a different solution. :clap: :bow: :salute:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 . |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 9 O 8 . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 7 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O 6 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


I see nothing better for White than :w6:, and the :b7: keeps things simple. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This post by Bill Spight was liked by 3 people: asura, cyclops, moyoaji
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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Post #18 Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:24 pm 
Oza
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SoDesuNe wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Var 3 - W dies?
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 8 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O 6 |
$$ . . . . . X O 7 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Var 3.1 - W dies?
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 3 O . 2 |
$$ . . . X O . O X |
$$ . . X O O O X O |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X O O |
$$ . . . . . X O X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Bill - What is the refutation of :b5: in the first diagram above? I thought it was quite a nice play and don't see how it fails. :blackeye:

_________________
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"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Post #19 Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:35 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
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ez4u wrote:
SoDesuNe wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Var 3 - W dies?
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 8 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O 6 |
$$ . . . . . X O 7 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Var 3.1 - W dies?
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 3 O . 2 |
$$ . . . X O . O X |
$$ . . X O O O X O |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X O O |
$$ . . . . . X O X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Bill - What is the refutation of :b5: in the first diagram above? I thought it was quite a nice play and don't see how it fails. :blackeye:


Thanks, Dave. :) I did not look closely enough at SoDesuNe's post. I don't see a refutation to his :b5: either. I got this from a very nice book, Tsumego: New Research, by Kita Fumiko (1935). She did not show that play, either.

Well done, SoDesuNe! :clap: :salute: :bow:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 9 O 8 . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 7 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O 6 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


After SoDesuNe's move, :b5: , I do not see anything better for White than :w6: . Then :b7: keeps things simple. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline SoDesuNe
 Post subject: Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Post #20 Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:13 am 
Gosei
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Ha ha ha, yeah, sadly that's the way I do Tsumegos. Give up one (actually working) line without thinking about every variation (putting :b4: one space lower in Var 2), find another line that seems to work but take the first best response and don't dig deeper for a more wholesome answer ( :b7: in Bill Spight's post) ^^

Really neat problem, a lot to think about =)

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