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 Post subject: Please help me understand this go problem solution(beginner)
Post #1 Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:34 am 
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Hi, I'm a beginner and I installed an android app with go problems and solutions, one of the problems is
Image

white has to capture black, and one of the solutions is
Image

please explain why is this a solution? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Please help me understand this go problem solution(begin
Post #2 Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:02 am 
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Does not look like a solution - are you sure it is supposed to be one?

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 Post subject: Re: Please help me understand this go problem solution(begin
Post #3 Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:02 am 
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The first solution is a common net. After that move black cannot get out.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Black is in atari
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . X .
$$ | . X O X C . . .
$$ | . X O X 4 5 . .
$$ | . O O 2 1 . . .
$$ | . . . 3 . . X .
$$ | . . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]


As for the second solution, it doesn't seem to work. It may also be net, but looser and more complicated. As Kageyama teaches in Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go, if there are two options to capture your opponent's stones, always choose the firmer of the two. The first solution should always be played in this situation.

Black 2 seems to be the move to get out. Without the marked black stone it doesn't work because of something like the cross-cut tesuji. Since that black stone is there, however, it does. White 3 doesn't seem to do anything to prevent black from connecting and it doesn't. Black 4 connects back to the marked stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . X .
$$ | . X O X . . . .
$$ | . X O X 3 . . .
$$ | . O O 4 2 1 . .
$$ | . . . . . . X .
$$ | . . . . B . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]


If the marked stone is not there here is how the solution works. If black cross-cuts white just captures the black cutting stones.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . X .
$$ | . X O X C . . .
$$ | . X O X 6 7 . .
$$ | . O O 5 2 1 . .
$$ | . . . . 3 4 X .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]


If black tries to force his way out, white still captures the cutting stones.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . X .
$$ | . X O X 6 7 . .
$$ | . X O X C . . .
$$ | . O O 4 2 1 . .
$$ | . . . 5 3 . X .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: Please help me understand this go problem solution(begin
Post #4 Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:57 am 
Oza

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moyoaji wrote:
As for the second solution, it doesn't seem to work. It may also be net, but looser and more complicated. As Kageyama teaches in Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go, if there are two options to capture your opponent's stones, always choose the firmer of the two. The first solution should always be played in this situation.

Black 2 seems to be the move to get out. Without the marked black stone it doesn't work because of something like the cross-cut tesuji. Since that black stone is there, however, it does. White 3 doesn't seem to do anything to prevent black from connecting and it doesn't. Black 4 connects back to the marked stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . X .
$$ | . X O X . . . .
$$ | . X O X 3 . . .
$$ | . O O 4 2 1 . .
$$ | . . . . . . X .
$$ | . . . . B . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]




but, doesn't :w1: work if white plays 3 at 4 instead?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . X .
$$ | . X O X . . . .
$$ | . X O X . . . .
$$ | . O O 3 2 1 . .
$$ | . . . . . . X .
$$ | . . . . B . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]


I think :w1: is fine. Its 3 and 4 that are out of order.

edit: maybe I'm wrong. It does look more complicated to read.

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 Post subject: Re: Please help me understand this go problem solution(begin
Post #5 Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:01 pm 
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xed_over wrote:
but, doesn't :w1: work if white plays 3 at 4 instead?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . X .
$$ | . X O X . . . .
$$ | . X O X . . . .
$$ | . O O 3 2 1 . .
$$ | . . . . . . X .
$$ | . . . . B . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]


I think :w1: is fine. Its 3 and 4 that are out of order.

edit: maybe I'm wrong. It does look more complicated to read.


I don't think it works. I tried that and this is what I came up with for black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . X .
$$ | . X O X . . . .
$$ | . X O X 4 8 0 .
$$ | . O O 3 2 1 9 .
$$ | . . . 7 5 6 X .
$$ | . . . . B . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]


Black is out.

EDIT: Bill's solution below is even better. Black is out and white is probably dead on both sides after those white stones die. However, the ladder must work for black.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves


Last edited by moyoaji on Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Please help me understand this go problem solution(begin
Post #6 Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:04 pm 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . X .
$$ | . X O X . . . .
$$ | . X O X 4 8 . .
$$ | . O O 3 2 1 9 0
$$ | . . . 7 5 6 X .
$$ | . . . . B . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]


:)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Please help me understand this go problem solution(begin
Post #7 Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:55 am 
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I don't recognize that Android app. Which is it?

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 Post subject: Re: Please help me understand this go problem solution(begin
Post #8 Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:58 am 
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Drew wrote:
I don't recognize that Android app. Which is it?

Hactar Go Lite

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 Post subject: Re: Please help me understand this go problem solution(begin
Post #9 Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:00 pm 
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thanks everyone for the replies !


This post by Monique7 was liked by: TheBigH
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 Post subject: Re: Please help me understand this go problem solution(begin
Post #10 Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:55 am 
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Hi,

Thank you for pointing out the error; wrong variation was mistakenly marked as correct in this problem.
Next update will correct this.

- Lauri

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