My (1d) first even game against a 3d

Pippen · **#21**

SoDesuNe wrote:

Your second example, without Komokus, is entirely different I'd say. Here I think :w4:

is a stylistic choice, though, I also think it tries to circumvent the underlying problems instead of facing it : D If you are unsure of how to handle frameworks then I would practice it and don't try everything possible to never have to face such situations.

Well, therefore it would be interesting to hear if this style is suboptimal or not. If it's suboptimal then I agree with you and one should rather learn how to deal with what you avoid here. But if it's not then it's OK. My guess is that the immediate split is maybe suboptimal, but not a retarded split after taking the corner. So that means: Black splitting is always alright, but with white it is suboptimal, rather white should first take the corner and then he can split (and there are many examples where it goes this way, e.g. the whole mini-chinese-fuseki).

Quote:

Regarding the split with a 3*4-stone in place:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Too good for White? $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

White played on both sides and when Black defends his group, he's also ending in Gote on the left.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Feasible for Black? $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Black can also try to extend all the way to prevent White from taking the enclosure but then I think :w8:

is a very strong move and a fight will start in an area where White has more stones than Black. This is of course playable but personally I think White dictates the flow here.

Overall I can find multiple reasons why the white moves are good:
:w6:

extends from the Hoshi stone and also attacks Black.
:w8:

in the first diagramme takes a solid enclosure while also keeping up the pressure on Black.
:w8:

in the second diagramme pincers and splits Black and so follows-up on :w6:

Black on the other hand:
:b7:

in the first diagramme just makes a bases while inducing White to take his beloved enclosure.
:b7:

in the second diagramme overextends and leaves behind weaknesses, so that it is unsure with what he will end with.

Well, but in both cases black has sente!

I'd probably play more solid like in the first diagram and the continue:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Too good for White? $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , b . . . . , . . . . . 9 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

...and Black leads and I'd still have a in sente. I also think that b or c instead of 9 are basically sente.

SoDesuNe · **#22**

Pippen wrote:

Well, therefore it would be interesting to hear if this style is suboptimal or not. If it's suboptimal then I agree with you and one should rather learn how to deal with what you avoid here. But if it's not then it's OK. My guess is that the immediate split is maybe suboptimal, but not a retarded split after taking the corner. So that means: Black splitting is always alright, but with white it is suboptimal, rather white should first take the corner and then he can split (and there are many examples where it goes this way, e.g. the whole mini-chinese-fuseki).

Go Seigen also says, the open corner is always bigger (or something along these lines) ; )

Pippen wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Too good for White? $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , b . . . . , . . . . . 9 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

It certainly is a playable game and the result will not be decided by these nine moves. I would take White anytime, though ^^

Pippen · **#23**

SoDesuNe wrote:

Go Seigen also says, the open corner is always bigger (or something along these lines) ; )

Is there a link for that?

Quote:

Pippen wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Too good for White? $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , b . . . . , . . . . . 9 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

It certainly is a playable game and the result will not be decided by these nine moves. I would take White anytime, though ^^

I challenge you.

I think - if confronted with playing for 10.000 $ (or to lose it) - not one 5+ dan would want to take white, because blacks framework seems just sooooo biiiigggg^^.

Shaddy · **#24**

If I were playing for 10k and had to pick a color there, I'd take white. Big frameworks don't scare me, because it's too easy to live in them.

Pippen · **#25**

Shaddy wrote:

If I were playing for 10k and had to pick a color there, I'd take white. Big frameworks don't scare me, because it's too easy to live in them.

Oh well, those 4d's

. Why is there no love for Black?

Pippen · **#26**

Shaddy wrote:

Big frameworks don't scare me, because it's too easy to live in them.

But the problem of framworks is not to live there - anyone better than 5k can do that. You can live in a framework, but because of the framwork you live there small and isolated while the framework players gets huge outside benefit. So even if his framework didn't hold, he got compensation out of it. So the real problem is how to deal with frameworks, so that its effects get neutralised. That's a tough one - at least for me. Therefore I went to the way of split, but of course such a path can be like digging oneself out of snow of an avalanche in the wrong direction....

Shaddy · **#27**

I want White because I have an extremely good record against sanrensei - usually I just approach the star points and take the corners if they're offered. Then I can either live in it or just reduce it. Corners + komi is a really large amount of points, and sanrensei doesn't give you that much.

Shaddy · **#28**

Oh, I should add that when I was 1-2d I was terrified of sanrensei too, and dealt with it using trick plays and splitting instead of taking a second corner. I got over it around the same time I realized how large komi was.

Pippen · **#29**

Shaddy wrote:

I want White because I have an extremely good record against sanrensei - usually I just approach the star points and take the corners if they're offered. Then I can either live in it or just reduce it. Corners + komi is a really large amount of points, and sanrensei doesn't give you that much.

Well, ok that's a style thing. So is there a stone you could play as black instead of 9 and where you would say: I'd definitely take black?

Cassandra · **#30**

Pippen wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Too good for White? $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , b . . . . , . . . . . 9 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If there were Black 1, 3, and 9 on the board, as well as White 2, 4, and 8, nearly nobody would play Black's move 7 at 5.

Shaddy · **#31**

Maaaybe o3 or n3, but looking back at the top left, probably not. I think white's enclosures are too good.

edit. Oh, Cassandra makes a good point. That's the "real" justification for my opinion, I guess, and what I've given is just what I'd do.

SoDesuNe · **#32**

Pippen wrote:

SoDesuNe wrote:

Go Seigen also says, the open corner is always bigger (or something along these lines) ; )

Is there a link for that?

Hm, I can't give one. John Fairbairn's Final Summit remarks on this, when I remember correctly, and it also is said the New In Go series (#12) - sadly gogod.co.uk is still offline.

Pippen · **#33**

Here's a game I just won against a 2d while playing horribly. That's what I mean. You win games you would not in more "structured & clear" games, because opponents have the disadvantage of surprise and tend to lose their poise. I commented two mistakes, do not try to comment beyond move 50 since this game is a gunslinger. Just enjoy a shoot-out^^.

Bill Spight · **#34**

Pippen wrote:

SoDesuNe wrote:

Go Seigen also says, the open corner is always bigger (or something along these lines) ; )

Is there a link for that?

That is not Go Seigen, that is common wisdom, for several centuries.

However, there have been players -- Kitani comes to mind --, who have sometimes played a wedge instead of an approach to the 3-4 stone in such positions. And, if the opponent's play is my play, and if the Chinese Fuseki is good, why not?

As for Go Seigen, in his "21st Century Go" writings he has not liked wedges in general.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Large knight's approach $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

In this opening Go Seigen definitely prefers :b5:

, because White does not have a strong pincer. Even with the 7.5 komi, he likes an easy opening for Black.

As for a wedge, instead, it gives Pippen an easy game for him.

Even if it is, say, one point worse than an approach in an objective sense, he seems to be finding that it works for him, given his current opponents.

----

Edit: Pippen, as for your game against hira123, looking at the position after :w12:

, it looks like he simply transposed to an opening he is familiar with.

My (1d) first even game against a 3d

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