Pincer

kungfupigeon · #1

Hi guys, I am around 25k so may seem simple to most but here goes!

I was playing black, had a stone on the star point, then white approaches. I tried to pincer seeing this done before, but as soon as white jumps out, I feel as if I have two weak stones and cannot protect both, how do i respond? This is what happened in the game.

I ended up playing a, but then b followed by white, and that's when I thought I was in trouble, black 2 suddenly looks very weak.

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EdLee · #2

kungfupigeon, this is a good learning experience for you.

kungfupigeon wrote:

...as soon as white jumps out, I feel as if I have two weak stones and cannot protect both...

Your feeling is correct. When W jumps out with :w3:

,
indeed you have two stones -- :bc:

and

-- and you cannot take care of both with one move.
W has miai of (a) direction and (b) direction --
( first, let's look at the local lower right corner, ignoring the rest of the board. ):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , b . . . . B . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$--------------------------------[/go]

This local result is reasonable.

If you jump to (a) with :b4:

:

If you help your :b2:

stone:

kungfupigeon · #3

Would you say my attempt to pincer in this situation was a mistake? Maybe perhaps if I had other stones I can?

EdLee · #4

kungfupigeon wrote:

Would you say my attempt to pincer in this situation was a mistake?

No problem with your :b2:

pincer. And if you jumped to (a) with :b4:

, still no problem.

It depends on your follow-ups -- what happened after :b2:

and

.

If you could post more from this game, then we can see what happened later.
If you got a bad result later, it was not because of :b2:

or

--
it was something else later, and we need to see more moves
to determine what was the problem.

kungfupigeon · #5

Here is how the game went down:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Actual game $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not happy by applying a pincer, I've actually helped him pressure my stones.

Perhaps I could have played:

Or instead of Black 10, I think I would like the shape more:

EdLee · #6

Just FYI, the original question and the actual game are different by 1 stone.

Original question:

kungfupigeon wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

The extra

stone -- I'm guessing :b5:

in the real game:

kungfupigeon wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Actual game $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . Y . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · #7

As predicted, the problem is neither your pincer :b7:

nor the one-space jump :b9:

, but in your follow-ups.
All your follow-ups -- :b11:

,

, and

-- are not good.
When we get a bad result, it is important to find out which moves are the problem, and which are not.
In your original questions (posts #1 and #5), you thought maybe your pincer :b7:

was to blame -- this is wrong.
Both your pincer :b7:

and your one-space jump :b9:

are OK.
The problem is your follow-ups: :b11:

,

, and

.

TIM82 · #8

filled in one variation mentioned earlier for completeness sake, and a personal comment on the choice of which side to support.

kungfupigeon · #9

Thanks guys. Yeah that extra stone i forgot in the original question... Noticed something wasn't right when white had more stones than black. :oops:

I can see how my follow ups kind of dug myself in a hole. Very interesting indeed!

Appreciate the time to go through the variations and show my mistakes. Thank you!

Bill Spight · **#10**

A couple of comments.

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The pincer, :b2:

, is a fine move.

As is

.

is questionable, however. It is generally bad to follow your opponent from behind. :b6:

makes

a better play than it is. (It is not a great play, BTW.) The point is that if Black had the :bc:

,

,

, and

, while White only had :w1:

and

,

would be a good play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Variation for $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 6 . . 2 . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

makes a base with :b2:

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Variation for $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 7 . . 2 . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

makes territory on the right side. Now if :w7:

, note that Black is outnumbered four to one locally. In the opening when you are outnumbered so badly, it is normally correct not to fight where you have such a disadvantage, but to sacrifice the stone. :b8:

is reasonable now.

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is a common beginner mistake. Fact is, after :w9:

White is helped more by the exchange than Black. That is not obvious, but maybe you can feel the difference in strength between :w7:

and

versus

and

. White threatens to play at "a", which in turn threatens "b" and "c".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Variation for $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is a normal response to :w7:

, securing the corner and threatening to connect underneath with "a". Black could also play here instead of :b10:

.

EdLee · **#11**

Thanks, Bill.

kungfupigeon · **#12**

The last variation is interesting, I had the thinking of bridging under in my original play, but you are right, I can see how black 8 is a mistake, introduces weaknesses, something to look out for next time, like Ed suggested, directly under may have been a better play.

Very enlightening. Thanks!

Pincer

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