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 Post subject: Re: Life and Death Problems 1
Post #21 Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:32 am 
Oza

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RobertJasiek wrote:
Boidhre, IIRC, the books you mention are like typical Asian problem books: many problems, but not always enough answer diagrams (when more relevant variations exist than are shown), explanations and accompanying theory. This makes it difficult for a beginner with weak LD skills to overcome incomplete reading or understand why his read variation(s) do not work.


How many of the books I listed have you looked through?

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Post #22 Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:22 am 
Judan

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Read one of them, looked through all, but my memory about the others is weak. EDIT: Is "Essential Life and Death" the LevelUp series? I have looked at the answers, which are available online.

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Post #23 Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:41 am 
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Dear Robert,

showing more "relevant" variations than "usual" makes sense (to some extent).

But what was your motivation for showing "Dia. 3 worst case" on page 80 of your book ?

"Life and Death" is (here) about "killing", not about "taking off the board" (this belongs to "Semeai").

"worst case" sounds dramatically, but you did nothing else than adding false eyes to a one-eyed group. Your move White 1 in Dia. 4 is simply a mistake, killing an already killed group, so losing a point. On the contrary, the conjunction with "worst case" might a weaker player make believe that adding false eyes might add any resistance to let their group become killed.

Does this have to do with your aversion agaist "shape" ?

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Post #24 Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:50 am 
Judan

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Cassandra, I do not have an aversion against shape, but I just take it as what it is: a visual appearance without information about move-sequences and choices.

The worst case diagram demostrates something that a significant fraction players 20 - 5k (even to 2 dan) does not understand by themselves. Although it goes down to the level of scoring removals, and so is below the usual level of solving LD problems, for this example, I consider it important to explain both levels. (For a few similar diagrams, see First Fundamentals, chapter Life and Death.) EDIT: as I explain in the Introduction, p.6, paragraph four, variations can show further moves to clarify things, regardless of whether the status is already settled.


Last edited by RobertJasiek on Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:08 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #25 Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:51 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Read one of them, looked through all, but my memory about the others is weak. EDIT: Is "Essential Life and Death" the LevelUp series? I have looked at the answers, which are available online.


I ask because Speed Baduk in particular is not what you think it is. You first get some diagrams and text explaining for instance a simple snapback, then you get a series of increasingly difficult problems where the answer is a snapback, starting with a trivial problem for the level the book is aimed at. It's just just a simple series of problems at all but laid out by someone whose professional work includes studying different methods of teaching go to beginners.

Edit: Essential Life and Death is from Baduktopia who I believe do the LevelUp series. Problems are grouped by theme and the hint is given on the page heading e.g. rectangular six in the corner and then six problems on this. It's intended as a problem drill book, not a complete L&D bible.

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Post #26 Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:06 am 
Judan

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Ok, then I'd say Speed Baduk is more useful than I thought, but the problems tended towards the easy end.

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Post #27 Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:11 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Cassandra, I do not have an aversion against shape, but I just take it as what it is: a visual appearance without information about move-sequences and choices.

Just a tiny "SHAPE" example for your entertainment.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to move
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X X X X . .
$$ | . X X . O O X X .
$$ | X O O . . O O X .
$$ | . . . . . . O X .
$$ -------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Liberty count
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X X X X . .
$$ | . X X . 3 3 X X .
$$ | X 3 3 . . 3 3 X .
$$ | . . . . . . 3 X .
$$ -------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Bulky shape 1
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X X X X . .
$$ | . X X . O O X X .
$$ | X O O T T O O X .
$$ | . . . T T T O X .
$$ -------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Bulky shape 2
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X X X X . .
$$ | . X X . O O X X .
$$ | X O O T T O O X .
$$ | . . T T T . O X .
$$ -------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Life and Death Problems 1
Post #28 Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:42 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Ok, then I'd say Speed Baduk is more useful than I thought, but the problems tended towards the easy end.


I showed the last volume of it to a KGS 3k. He found the problems difficult enough.

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Post #29 Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:27 am 
Judan

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The sample is extended and its pages 116-123 are new:

http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/LifeAndDeat ... Sample.pdf


This post by RobertJasiek was liked by 3 people: daal, HermanHiddema, SoDesuNe
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Post #30 Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:26 am 
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Dear Robert,

Perhaps you wanted to think about the missing "SHAPE factor" in your book:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Liberty count
$$ -------------------
$$ | X X X O . . . X .
$$ | . O O O O . X O .
$$ | O O . 2 O . X O .
$$ | X X . 2 O . X . .
$$ | . . X O O . . . .
$$ | . X . X X X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Line of false eyes
$$ -------------------
$$ | X X X O . . . X .
$$ | . O O O O . X O .
$$ | O P . X O . X O .
$$ | X X M X O . X . .
$$ | . . X P O . . . .
$$ | . X . X X X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Liberty count
$$ -------------------
$$ | O O O . . 2 X . .
$$ | O . X 2 2 2 X . .
$$ | O O O X X X X . .
$$ | X X X , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Line of false eyes
$$ -------------------
$$ | O O O M . O X . .
$$ | O . Z O O O X . .
$$ | O O O Z X X X . .
$$ | X X X , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Liberty count
$$ -------------------
$$ | X 2 2 . . . 2 X .
$$ | X X 2 . O . 2 X .
$$ | . . X O . O X X .
$$ | . X . X O O X . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Line of false eyes
$$ -------------------
$$ | X O O . M . O X .
$$ | X X O M O M O X .
$$ | . . Z O . O Z X .
$$ | . X . X O O X . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Liberty count
$$ -------------------
$$ | . X X . . 2 X . .
$$ | O O O O . 2 X . .
$$ | X X X X 2 2 X . .
$$ | . . . , X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Line of false eyes
$$ -------------------
$$ | . X X M . O X . .
$$ | O O O O M O X . .
$$ | X X X Z O O X . .
$$ | . . . , X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Life and Death Problems 1
Post #31 Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:13 am 
Judan

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Such shape analysis is possible, but is not what I teach in this book, which concentrates on techniques, reading correctly and reading reasonably "completely". Shape analysis must not replace reading; usually, it can be only a preliminary helping step. I want to motivate the reader to read sequences and perceive application of techniques to guide reading; shape analysis would distract from the essential aim. There are, depending on how one counts, between 35 and 75 techniques in the book. This is enough; I would not want to overload the reader with further techniques from another class. Instead, techniques occurring in one chapter must be applied also elsewhere in the book; for readers to whom quite a few of the techniques are new, this already is a task keeping their minds busy.

IOW, the book is not a comprehensive dictionary of all possible techniques and methods. Instead, it is a careful selection of basic techniques, so that all together are a sufficient set of tools for all basic problems without special kos etc.

The book could have been overloaded also in other ways. E.g., it could have included many more reading principles. I have postponed them for later volumes, so that Volume 1 is what its subtitle says: about the basics.

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Post #32 Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:39 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Ok, then I'd say Speed Baduk is more useful than I thought, but the problems tended towards the easy end.

If you want the harder end of series like Speed Baduk, you can try the ones below from the same publisher (Oromedia) which are similar but aimed at higher level players:
Top 1%
Train Like a Pro
Inspiration of Pro

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Post #33 Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:04 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
The book could have been overloaded also in other ways. E.g., it could have included many more reading principles. I have postponed them for later volumes, so that Volume 1 is what its subtitle says: about the basics.

We can stop it here, Robert.

It is as I already said before: In principle, you are following the same road that many, many authors before you have already walked on. Additinally claiming that your walking-style is the "ideal" one.

I assume that you know the saying "Even a journey of 1.000 miles begins with the first step." What should it help you to know 100 walking-styles, if you had absolutely no idea, where to place your first step ?

"Basic" is "This is a false eye." or "This is the vital point of gomuku-nakade.", not "This is the correct order of moves how I should fill gomuku-nakade.".

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 Post subject: Re: Life and Death Problems 1
Post #34 Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:13 am 
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A small error:

On page 148, last paragraph, the phrase "which lets C be eyeless" should be something like "after which C is a false eye".

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Post #35 Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:27 am 
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Cassandra wrote:
In principle, you are following the same road that many, many authors before you have already walked on. Additinally claiming that your walking-style is the "ideal" one.

I assume that you know the saying "Even a journey of 1.000 miles begins with the first step." What should it help you to know 100 walking-styles, if you had absolutely no idea, where to place your first step ?


And this you write just after having shown lines of three marked intersections? Your technique requires three times as much effort as recognising the only one intersection that provides a single liberty in a snapback. Basic!

Quote:
"Basic" is "This is a false eye." or "This is the vital point of gomuku-nakade.", not "This is the correct order of moves how I should fill gomuku-nakade.".


'Basic' for absolute beginners is something else than 'basic' for beginners and intermediate players. Let me repeat: the book is NOT for absolute beginners. A related comment on p. 48: "Surely, the reader has seen countless [such] examples in beginners' books or rules commentaries, so we do not need to repeat them here."

HermanHiddema wrote:
On page 148, last paragraph, the phrase "which lets C be eyeless" should be something like "after which C is a false eye".


The book avoids the phrase 'false eye', therefore I do not consider your suggestion an improvement for this book. In general, I prefer to avoid the term, because it only creates problems, when living with what, by shape, looks like false eyes.

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Post #36 Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:48 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
And this you write just after having shown lines of three marked intersections? Your technique requires three times as much effort as recognising the only one intersection that provides a single liberty in a snapback. Basic!

Dear Robert,

Sorry for the question, but do you always read 50 per cent of a text only ?

One "SHAPE characteristic" shown is one group with two liberties only.

Another "SHAPE characteristic" is a line of points that is typical for false eyes.

The co-incidence of both (which have their value in general, with other types of problems, too) makes a technique suitable that is known as "Snap-back". Seen literally, the technique that is known as "Atari" is applied here, too, but you have to make sure that you do not choose the wrong one (i.e. the move on the point that is not marked with "X").

Another way to look at the last of my examples given:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Bulky shape
$$ -------------------
$$ | . Y Y T . O X . .
$$ | O O O O . O X . .
$$ | X X X X O O X . .
$$ | . . . , X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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Post #37 Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:58 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:
On page 148, last paragraph, the phrase "which lets C be eyeless" should be something like "after which C is a false eye".


The book avoids the phrase 'false eye', therefore I do not consider your suggestion an improvement for this book. In general, I prefer to avoid the term, because it only creates problems, when living with what, by shape, looks like false eyes.


Ok, if you want to avoid the term "false eye", then it could be something like "after which C is not an eye" or "after which there is no eye at C"

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Post #38 Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:35 am 
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Herman, ok, thank you for suggesting to improve the English style.

Cassandra, I do not doubt that shape analysis of your kind is possible, but from my POV it is entirely superfluous. It is optional, and those wishing to use such can do so. However, my book is about relevant techniques, not about optional techniques.

I have never used your kind of shape analysis, and I do not intend to use it, because I consider it entirely superfluous.

As something superfluous and at best optional, it may fit into a detailed theory or theory-heavy book (series) that shall be as complete as possible, but I do not want to use it in a problem-heavy book series. There are more than enough relevant and important techniques to be taught - there is no need to teach also optional techniques as if they were important.

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Post #39 Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:19 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Cassandra, I do not doubt that shape analysis of your kind is possible, but from my POV it is entirely superfluous. It is optional, and those wishing to use such can do so. However, my book is about relevant techniques, not about optional techniques.

I have never used your kind of shape analysis, and I do not intend to use it, because I consider it entirely superfluous.

Dear Robert,

We should really stop here.

-- Your ambition is to teach in detail every kind of tool suitable for chopping a tree down.
-- In my opinion, it is also important to teach how to identify the trees that could be chopped down.

Let me put it this way:
20k problems are about "SHAPE" / "VITAL POINTS", 7d problems are about "READING" / "TECHNIQUE".

In general, the more high-level a problem is, the more "open" is its position, and the longer is its solution sequence (; it follows that it has the more variations).

With a high-level problem several, in some way preparatory, moves of the solution sequence are necessary to "reduce" the position given to a lower-level position of an already known kind. This also means that the problem's "SHAPE characteristics" are hidden below the surface, the deeper the more high-level the problem is.

+ + + + + + + + +

There are already many books about chopping-down-tools, and you want to write the ultimate one.
My suggestion: Think about

"Do not go where the path may lead, but go where there is no path and leave a trail."

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Post #40 Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:10 am 
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In this book, I teach every technique above absolute beginner level that is RELEVANT and IMPORTANT and BASIC. Therefore I share your opinion that it is also important to teach how to reduce the reading complexity.

I do not share the view that 20k problems are about shape per se, but 20k must learn to identify lakes, nakades, eyes and eyespaces so that the taught techniques (from sacrifice, via atari to liberty shortage and double purpose) can be applied to them by READING.

Apart from the mentioned objects, shapes are a weak guideline, because ONE EXTRA STONE CAN MAKE THE DIFFERENCE. Status assessment by shapes is unsecure, but status assessment by (correct and reasonably complete) reading is secure. This must be learnt as early as possible, even by a 20k.

The "trail of where there is no prior path" includes the systematic coverage of techniques hardly found explicitly elsewhere: threatening to cut, threatening to give an atari, protecting the boundary of a lake as a single function regardless of a move's shape, threatening to create a lake, attacking a lake as a single function regardless of a move's shape, threatening to create a nakade, threatening to create a partition, threatening a reduction, big reduction as a technique with a suggestive name and as a single function regardless of a move's shape, threatening a throw-in, an explicit name for 'threatening to make an eye by removing a throw-in', threatening a snapback, suggestive names for aproach blocks and its finer techniques, threatening to create an external liberty shortage, a suggestive name for internal liberty shortage, threatening to create an internal liberty shortage. In general, threats were represented badly in the literature, as far as I have seen it. (Threats were mostly hidden as moves in variations, when other topics were being discussed.) I do not know if other beginner problem books explain multiple threats well. New basic reading principles, which I do not recall to have seen written elsewhere. Enough answer variations. A clear structure for the techniques. Prior study of many moves in problems and beginner games, to verify frequency and relevance of the included techniques and principles.

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