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Kirby

Post subject: Re: Joseki Question

#21 Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:47 am

Honinbo

Posts: 9552
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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해

Thanks, everyone. I think I finally understand the benefit of R15. :tmbup:

:tmbup:

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be immersed

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Bill Spight

Post subject: Re: Joseki Question

#22 Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:38 am

Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374

Kirby wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . 1 4 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . e O O X 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . d . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c W a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

It's still not clear to me about why 'a' is so different here than if black 2 is at 'd'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

How does Black reply to :w3:

:w3:

?

Edit: We seem to have a consensus.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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HermanHiddema

Post subject: Re: Joseki Question

#23 Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:49 am

Gosei

Posts: 2011
Location: Groningen, NL
Liked others: 202
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Rank: Dutch 4D
GD Posts: 645
Universal go server handle: herminator

Bill Spight wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

How does Black reply to :w3:

:w3:

?

Edit: We seem to have a consensus.

Equally important: how does black reply to :w1:

:w1:

?

Hane may seem tempting, but:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Black resigns $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W 1 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

:cry:

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Offline

Bill Spight

Post subject: Re: Joseki Question

#24 Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:59 am

Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374

A little bit of history.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . a O 1 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

The taisha ( :wc:

:wc:

) dates to the mid 20th century. At first, :b2:

:b2:

was a common response to :w1:

:w1:

, obviously threatening the cut at "a".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O 1 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

:b2:

was tried, as better shape, and after :b4:

:b4:

White is peeping at a bamboo joint.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O 1 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 4 W . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

In that case, why not play :w3:

:w3:

to force

:b4:

, which Black would not necessarily play after :b6:

:b6:

. After

:b6:

Black might play the hane at "a" instead.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O 1 X 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 W . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

But then, having played :b4:

:b4:

, why not play :b6:

:b6:

instead of the bamboo joint? Without the bamboo joint, :b4:

:b4:

looks good, and White may regret :w3:

:w3:

.

This gives us the "old joseki" mentioned above.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

This post by Bill Spight was liked by: Kirby

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Bill Spight

Post subject: Re: Joseki Question

#25 Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:01 am

Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374

HermanHiddema wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

How does Black reply to :w3:

:w3:

?

Edit: We seem to have a consensus.

Equally important: how does black reply to :w1:

:w1:

?

Hane may seem tempting, but:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Black resigns $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W 1 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

:cry:

Some people are easily tempted. :mrgreen:

:mrgreen:

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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