Personal go terminology

daal · #1

Recently, Robert Jasiek coined the term "lake" (like the body of water, not something Japanese) to describe eyespace with good potential to become actual eyes. In this same discussion, the idea cropped up that if one wants to apply a specific meaning to a word when others are also possible, that it might be a good idea to use a different word so as to avoid confusion. It's interesting to observe that while the Japanese have a well established terminology, many English speakers are not familiar with its breadth and with the nuances of various terms, and it seems quite normal that they (we) would begin to use our own terms in ways that make intuitive sense to us. I don't doubt that there is very little in go for which there is no Japanese word, and many of them have been admirably translated. Nonetheless, as we learn the game, it may very well be the case that we encounter ideas before we learn the Asian terms, and I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that many of us have started to use some type of personal idioms to describe these concepts for oneself. It also wouldn't surprise me if some of these terms would turn out to be quite intuitive for other native English speakers. As an example, I describe either of the following moves to myself as "getting in his face:"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$[/go]

Do you have any personal go terms?

EdLee · #2

Kyu feeling.

Example. "Oh, I see: this is pro move; but my kyu feeling is here. :oops:

"

RobertJasiek · #3

There must be much that is missing in Japanese terminology, has not reached translation or does not describe well, or clearly enough, recently invented ideas or concepts. Therefore, I often need to invent new terms, part of which I publish or use privately only.

Cassandra · #4

RobertJasiek wrote:

There must be much that is missing in Japanese terminology, has not reached translation or does not describe well, or clearly enough, recently invented ideas or concepts. Therefore, I often need to invent new terms, part of which I publish or use privately only.

Do you really think that the Japanese have found the crystal ball revealing the future ?

apple tree = リンゴの木

plum tree = 梅

Which fruit do you think has found its way to Japan later ?

SmoothOper · #5

For some of us if we shared our personal go terms, it would sound like a dirty nursery rhyme.

Hane on the mother @ like a $ son ! @ #, up your ....

Seriously though I think many of the strategic concepts translations are problematic, because they don't yield to simple definitions, and there actually are paralogs in English that already exist, but aren't necessarily well adapted to go. Many of the tesuji names are inane in the original language anyway, so I don't see any point in translating those.

DrStraw · #6

SmoothOper wrote:

For some of us if we shared our personal go terms, it would sound like a dirty nursery rhyme.

Hane on the mother @ like a $ son ! @ #, up your ....

Seriously though I think many of the strategic concepts translations are problematic, because they don't yield to simple definitions, and there actually are paralogs in English that already exist, but aren't necessarily well adapted to go. Many of the tesuji names are inane in the original language anyway, so I don't see any point in translating those.

And there are everyday Japanese words which have specialized meanings in go which a Japansese non-player would not understand. Therefore, as you say, it is not always necessary to translate. In the world of science, for the most part only the Germans translate technical terms into their own language.

Joaz Banbeck · #7

daal wrote:

...
Do you have any personal go terms?

'Toothpaste attack': an attack from two side that forces a defender to live by expanding into what would have been your territory or your area of influence.

'Egyptian defense': Adding more stones to a group that is going to die soon.

RBerenguel · #8

DrStraw wrote:

In the world of science, for the most part only the Germans translate technical terms into their own language.

I'm not sure if this is a side attack on RJ, but in any case this is incredibly false, unless "for the most part" is just an English-centric view of the world. I can only vouch for computer science and mathematics terms (since it is where I have most knowledge), but Catalan translates ALL technical terms into Catalan, each year a commission decides what goes in, and how. It adds to the language corpus in a normalised manner. I'm not 100% sure about frequency in Castilian Spanish, but likewise, all technical terms in use eventually get a proper Spanish word to go with it. Icelandic to preserve its language integrity turns all foreign words into Icelandic-similar words. Since these three (aside from English and German) are the languages I'm most familiar with, I can't go on with more examples, but I'd bet French doesn't just take the English word, it wouldn't suit their style. But I guess having Spanish defeats the "for the most part" affirmation.

Joaz Banbeck · #9

One that should exist, but that I haven't heard of yet, is a term to describe the sudden realization that your group is dead, and that you have played the past 50 moves assuming that it was alive.

RBerenguel · **#10**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

One that should exist, but that I haven't heard of yet, is a term to describe the sudden realization that your group is dead, and that you have played the past 50 moves assuming that it was alive.

"D'oh"?

moyoaji · **#11**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

One that should exist, but that I haven't heard of yet, is a term to describe the sudden realization that your group is dead, and that you have played the past 50 moves assuming that it was alive.

I believe the Japanese term for this is: "makemashita"
The English term is more non-verbal and involves placing two hands under the board - one under each of the corners of the board closest to you - and throwing that side of the board into the air. It is sometimes referred to as the "nuclear tesuji."

Bonobo · **#12**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

daal wrote:

...
Do you have any personal go terms?

'Toothpaste attack': an attack from two side that forces a defender to live by expanding into what would have been your territory or your area of influence.

I’ve seen that in use several times already, and I think the toothpaste attack is also mentioned in SL (or was it you who mentioned it there? :-o

).

Quote:

'Egyptian defense': Adding more stones to a group that is going to die soon.

“like”

RBerenguel · **#13**

Bonobo wrote:

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

daal wrote:

...
Do you have any personal go terms?

'Toothpaste attack': an attack from two side that forces a defender to live by expanding into what would have been your territory or your area of influence.

I’ve seen that in use several times already, and I think the toothpaste attack is also mentioned in SL (or was it you who mentioned it there? :-o

).

Quote:

'Egyptian defense': Adding more stones to a group that is going to die soon.

“like”

The toothpaste thing I've seen in a lecture with Namii or Tien in KGS... so I guess it's getting widespread.

I also love the Egyptian defense. So adequate!

Bill Spight · **#14**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

One that should exist, but that I haven't heard of yet, is a term to describe the sudden realization that your group is dead, and that you have played the past 50 moves assuming that it was alive.

Shi-tso!

Also, O-shi-tso! (Most honorable shitso.)

SmoothOper · **#15**

Bill Spight wrote:

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

One that should exist, but that I haven't heard of yet, is a term to describe the sudden realization that your group is dead, and that you have played the past 50 moves assuming that it was alive.

Shi-tso!

Also, O-shi-tso! (Most honorable shitso.)

Or in Chinese. bu shi

DrStraw · **#16**

RBerenguel wrote:

I'm not sure if this is a side attack on RJ, but in any case this is incredibly false, unless "for the most part" is just an English-centric view of the world. I can only vouch for computer science and mathematics terms (since it is where I have most knowledge), but Catalan translates ALL technical terms into Catalan, each year a commission decides what goes in, and how. It adds to the language corpus in a normalised manner. I'm not 100% sure about frequency in Castilian Spanish, but likewise, all technical terms in use eventually get a proper Spanish word to go with it. Icelandic to preserve its language integrity turns all foreign words into Icelandic-similar words. Since these three (aside from English and German) are the languages I'm most familiar with, I can't go on with more examples, but I'd bet French doesn't just take the English word, it wouldn't suit their style. But I guess having Spanish defeats the "for the most part" affirmation.

I certainly was not attacking RJ. I wasn't even thinking of German being his nationality. And I don't think Catalan and Icelandic are mainstream technology languages. I guess I should have been a little clearer but I was thinking of the mainstream languages like English, French, Russian and German for starters, and a few others as well. I know of few others than German which, for example, do not use a variant of the original Greek or Latin word. Russian does to some extent, but it still uses a lot of classical roots.

leichtloeslich · **#17**

DrStraw wrote:

In the world of science,

That's a pretty big world! Anything specific you were thinking of?

DrStraw wrote:

for the most part only the Germans translate technical terms into their own language.

So there are technical terms in some language (not German) and these are the "true" terms, which (for the most part) only Germans bother to translate?

Maybe you could give a few concrete examples?

DrStraw wrote:

I know of few others than German which, for example, do not use a variant of the original Greek or Latin word.

Could you give actual examples?

jts · **#18**

He's talking about things like oxygen versus Sauerstoff, television versus Fernseher, economics versus Wirtschaftwissenschaft... in a large number of cases other European languages opted to simply adopted an international standard with classical roots to their own phonetics, while the Germans often translate the root directly.

Boidhre · **#19**

jts wrote:

He's talking about things like oxygen versus Sauerstoff, television versus Fernseher, economics versus Wirtschaftwissenschaft... in a large number of cases other European languages opted to simply adopted an international standard with classical roots to their own phonetics, while the Germans often translate the root directly.

It's not quite that simple, it's not classical roots with their own phonetics but classical roots transformed into a borrowed word in the normal way for the two languages involved, radiation in English is radaíocht in Irish, which if you know both languages look like they come from the same Latin root but are far from just adopted to their own phonetics. Radiation amusingly isn't even English, it's French just with English phonetics, eh, ok so sometimes yeah it does happen...

RobertJasiek · **#20**

Languages can have had their own terms before imports become an option. E.g., German had had "Vorhand" and "Nachhand" before any Germans heard of "sente" and "gote". Nowadays, both are used about equally frequently. (Science: until WW II, there was a greater fraction of German science, so German kept a good percentage of its own terms. German terms are sometimes adopted in English: Eigenwert -> eigenvalue.)

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