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 Post subject: Using influence
Post #1 Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:32 pm 
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Hi guys, I went to a real life go club yesterday and it was interesting! I looked at 2x 2kyu players playing and noticed a strange opening and a very interesting game followed where the thole thing was about controlling the center of the board. I was told being fairly new I should focus on corners, but I found it so intriguing and couldn't help myself but try to replicate some elements. I know I am not strong enough to take full advantage but... I am fascinated. During lunch today, I played a very quick game with a bot on my smartphone and replicated the opening. (My wife wasn't impressed I wasn't eating!)

I was black, I was happy with everything, but then I felt I could have played 17 much better. The result was white cut into the middle in which I was trying to develop. Things get worse and I didn't mind, I am interested in:

  • whether 17 could have played something like... P14 would have been better...
  • or perhaps when was the best time to jump from the base at the top? Perhaps the 3rd stone extension wasn't as good as jumping towards the middle?

Some thoughts would be appreciated on how I could have controlled the middle of the board better!



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 Post subject: Re: Using influence
Post #2 Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:43 pm 
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Now that I think about it... I think the 3rd (black) move the player played at N4.

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Post #3 Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:17 pm 
Honinbo
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:b17: no problem.
:b35: just extend to F16.
:b39: your local shape is not good.
:w42: W can simply extend to M7, the elephant's eye (thanks to :b39: and :b41:).
:b51: - :w52: local broken shape for B (thanks to :b39:, :b41:, :b51:). (*)
:b53: - :w54: more local broken shape for B. (*)
:b75: - :w76: local broken shape for B. (*)
:black: 163 mistake; just connect at Q13.

(*) See also Toothpaste.

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 Post subject: Re: Using influence
Post #4 Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:40 pm 
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9 is too slow and very inconsistent with your strategy.

17 could be one point to the left or one point below and to the left. (4th line) White capping you removes some hope for your cosmic style.

The sequence starting at move 51 is when I felt things were going poorly. That's a classic bad shape mistake (pushing from behind)

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 Post subject: Re: Using influence
Post #5 Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:54 am 
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Thanks guys. Ed, for 75, where should I have answered that move? would J 12 be a better response for B?

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Post #6 Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:14 am 
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For :b75:, there are two issues:
- what was your plan when you played :b71: ?
- right now, you are still at the recognition phase of all these shapes.

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 Post subject: Re: Using influence
Post #7 Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:11 am 
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My thinking process was 71 was to cut into white's area while forming my own area in the middle. I knew it would require an extra move on the left capping his stones on the left, and it was kind of loose, but I didn't know how else to try and form some territory in the middle but to do that.

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Post #8 Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:32 am 
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kungfupigeon wrote:
My thinking process was 71 was...
But before you played :b71:, did you read :w74: (or any other local replies by W) at all? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Using influence
Post #9 Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:39 am 
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Aesthetically, it looks like you didn't really engage your opponent, and never tried to get sente to attack whites stones on the upper side. Furthermore by move 9 your M4 stone looks over concentrated. At move nine I would have made an approach move in the upper right setting up a ladder breaker(use the influence), so that if/when white invades, the bottom left, you can use a more severe joseki as well as completing your moyo with the bottom right, because white can easily take star point on the side, and nullify the moyo potential. My prejudice against one sided Fuseki (Chinese, sanrensei) may be showing by this point, but at move five a placement around tengen would allow some severe corner joseki with the 5-4 and 3-5.

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 Post subject: Re: Using influence
Post #10 Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:12 am 
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You actually came out of the opening very well. :)

Then you lost the game on the second line and in the center. You missed large plays in both places.


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Everything with love. Stay safe.


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 Post subject: Re: Using influence
Post #11 Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:49 am 
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17 was okay, when the other has an 4-4 point it's because he will also develop the center.

Generally, in the opening, we play high moves because we want to develop fast to invite a invasion of the other, normally those moves make a giant sphere of influence, and if the other tries to enter a fight can start, and since that it's in your sphere of influence you have the advantage... Think of handicap stones and how they are in the fourth line. Normally we call this influence (4th and 5th line moves). Influence doesn't come for free, we usually give up some territory for it.

For example, in 17, he gets some white stones in the center creating influence, but he gives you Q12 and Q9. It's an exchange, he makes your side much more stronger, but he develops in the center (compare it when you played P17 and after he gets the stones in the center, he had the possibility to invade, but after the exchange is much more risky and difficult). You need to see if that exchange is good for you, if you find it bad you need to counter attack.

We also play low moves because they bring security, they usually are in the 3rd or 2rd line, but you should balance it, because if you play too many low moves you will be behind after the opening... They are usually made because 3rd line is easy to settle and make eyes, so invasions to 3rd line groups are difficult, but they are also difficult to develop into the center, so it's a kind of trade.

You are doing great, you will soon find some balance, as now you played very peacifully, but you were too passive at the same time, so for example when white entered in the center with the knight move, you never tried to cut and form a fight. It's a choice, you need to see if what you get when you respond passive is better than responding aggresive, if you are doing a good deal or if you are getting ripped off.

When i was 9kyu some 4dan explained how the game flows because of the exchanges, if you see every move as an exchange you will quickly improve.

Another important thing about the game is to keep initiative, if the other just responds to you and you can make every exchange bad for him, how you can lose?. If you keep the initiative you can play wherever you want, and also play in important parts before the other. That's why "tenuki" is so important.

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 Post subject: Re: Using influence
Post #12 Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:12 pm 
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Regarding your initial comment about the game being all about the center:

In japanese, when they speak of the middle game (chuban) they aren't referring to middle in the sense of between the beginning and the end, they are referring to the middle as in the center of the board.

Generally, when people say that you should start with the corners first, that doesn't mean that you need to take territory in the corners, but rather that the corners are the easiest place to make a strong group quickly, so you should play there first. Once everyone has determined where their groups will be and it's clear which groups are strong and which aren't (or can be made weak) the focus shifts to control of the center, because controlling the center means that you can split your opponents groups more easily, and they will have no place to run. In one sense, the opening is about deciding how much you can trade to be able to control the center, or how much control to give up for a certain amount of territory; the middle game is about controlling the center and using it to threaten weak groups; and the end game is about firming up boundaries now that the general shapes of all the groups and whether they are alive or dead has been determined.

This is why the 3-3 invasion under a 4-4 stone is bad in the opening; that group is cut off from the center, so it won't affect the middle game, but the group formed from the 4-4 stone is in position to take control of the center easily. Later in the game, it can be good, because you take territory but your opponent's strong wall may be useless because you have a strong or living group just on the other side, or he may have a strong center position and ends up with two great walls that are only a few spaces apart and don't make as many points as they should.

It can be difficult to keep all this in mind and make sure you're not falling behind in territory too much at the beginning too, but you get better at it with practice, and there is a balance between the two to be found. Additionally, at a professional level, some players prefer to start out more in one direction and some in the other, but it's worth learning to play both ways. Even if you get less territory right away, a strong center position makes it easier to ruin your opponents territory and to make points while you harass his groups with lots of forcing moves while his responses don't get him anything he didn't already have.

Hopefully this makes sense, and gives you some ideas for things to try, but if you have questions, feel free to ask.

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 Post subject: Re: Using influence
Post #13 Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:38 pm 
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thank you for all your comments. Learnt a lot. I still shy away from fights or being too aggressive and try to focus on creating good shapes for now... My feeling is I have an idea of what I want to do.. but executing it... the local moves and not reading the other player's moves undos me. I hear that doing more tsumegos will help me read out things and provide me with an idea on how to connect stones and where to cut... so I think I need more practice on that to inspire confidence so I can take full advantage of the initiative.

Thank you for the comments though.


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 Post subject: Re: Using influence
Post #14 Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:01 pm 
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skydyr wrote:
In japanese, when they speak of the middle game (chuban) they aren't referring to middle in the sense of between the beginning and the end, they are referring to the middle as in the center of the board.


Really?

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 Post subject: Re: Using influence
Post #15 Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:15 pm 
Oza

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Quote:
In japanese, when they speak of the middle game (chuban) they aren't referring to middle in the sense of between the beginning and the end, they are referring to the middle as in the center of the board.


No. E.g. 布石と終盤との中間の段階。(The intermediate stage between the fuseki and the endgame: Hayashi) It is also defined as the stage from when fighting erupts to the start of large boundary plays.

The centre area of the board would be 中腹 or 中元 or 中央 etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Using influence
Post #16 Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:53 pm 
Oza

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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
In japanese, when they speak of the middle game (chuban) they aren't referring to middle in the sense of between the beginning and the end, they are referring to the middle as in the center of the board.


No. E.g. 布石と終盤との中間の段階。(The intermediate stage between the fuseki and the endgame: Hayashi) It is also defined as the stage from when fighting erupts to the start of large boundary plays.

The centre area of the board would be 中腹 or 中元 or 中央 etc.


Hmm... I thought I had read the opposite somewhere, but I can't find my source now so perhaps I was mistaken.

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