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 Post subject: Corner Situation in Club Game
Post #1 Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:48 pm 
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In a club game tonight I got into a situation where I tried to play a move in sente that would let my stones connect, but my opponent ignored and kept me cut. I had read that black could do no better than ko in the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 Anything but ko?
$$ | X . . . . O O O
$$ | O X X . X . X .
$$ | O O O O . X . .
$$ | . X X O O . X .
$$ | . . . X O O X .
$$ | . 1 X . X O . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]


I was able to kill the corner, but my opponent felt he could've lived if he'd played better. Was I wrong? Does black have a way to live in the corner without an unfavorable ko? Or even is there a way for white to kill without the ko? Looking at varitions on my own I don't think a ko is avoidable.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 This is the ko I foresaw...
$$ | X . . . . O O O
$$ | O X X . X . X .
$$ | O O O O . X . .
$$ | . X X O O . X .
$$ | . 3 . X O O X .
$$ | . 1 X C X O . .
$$ | . 2 . 4 5 6 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]


For those wondering how this developed. This was the general idea (I don't remember everything about the surrounding stones perfectly, but the corner situation is accurate.)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 :b8: tenuki
$$ | . . 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 3 . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . . X 5 7 . .
$$ | . . . . 6 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 Later...
$$ | . 0 X X X O . .
$$ | 8 . . . . 3 . .
$$ | 7 4 X . X . . .
$$ | 9 5 O O . . . .
$$ | . 6 X 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O . .
$$ | . . 2 . X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 And finally...
$$ | X . . . . O O O
$$ | O X X . X . X .
$$ | O O O O . X . .
$$ | . X X O O . X .
$$ | . . . X O O 2 .
$$ | . 3 X . X 1 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: Corner Situation in Club Game
Post #2 Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:19 am 
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Is that a ko?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 This is the ko I foresaw...
$$ | X . . . . O O O
$$ | O X X . X . X .
$$ | O O O O . X . .
$$ | . X X O O . X .
$$ | b 3 . X O O X .
$$ | . 1 X 6 X O . .
$$ | . 2 . 4 5 a . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 This is the ko I foresaw...
$$ | X . . . . O O O
$$ | O X X . X . X .
$$ | O O O O . X . .
$$ | 9 X X O O . X .
$$ | 8 3 0 X O O X .
$$ | . 1 X 6 X O . .
$$ | . 2 . 4 5 7 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 This is the ko I foresaw...
$$ | X . . . . O O O
$$ | O X X . X . X .
$$ | O O O O . X . .
$$ | O X X O O . X .
$$ | 3 O X X O O X .
$$ | 1 O X X X X O . .
$$ | 2 X X . X O O . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Corner Situation in Club Game
Post #3 Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:34 am 
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Uh... First, your last diagram is not of the same board position. Second, white can play like this:



Attachments:
StillKoForLife.sgf [206 Bytes]
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_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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 Post subject: Re: Corner Situation in Club Game
Post #4 Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:59 am 
Honinbo

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:)

:w11: is a mistake.

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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


This post by Bill Spight was liked by: moyoaji
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 Post subject: Re: Corner Situation in Club Game
Post #5 Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:05 am 
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Thanks Bill.

Yes, :w11: is clearly a mistake. Without that move black is just dead.

It does look like an interesting position can come out of this. By avoiding kos I think both sides could achieve life.


_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: Corner Situation in Club Game
Post #6 Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:04 am 
Oza
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The White play at F1 is a waste of time if White is going to connect at F2. White plays the ko.

However, instead of D2, doesn't Black just play A4? How will White prevent Black from living?

Edit: Oops, wrong again. A4 looks like ko also after A5. :sad:

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- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

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