How do you learn to count a game? I don't mean judging how the territory will be reduced, but plain counting of territory. I read books líke "High speed game analysis" by Cho Chikun and the Fawthrop lectures, but my problem is far more elementary. Now only am I not able to judge how much territory some area might be worth, even when I count (packs of two) it is almost always far off from the correct result. I just lost a game by more than 40 points, and I thought I was winning. I am 4d KGS

There are some good lessons here: http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 7&p=144846

When I first started to count the results I would get are way off. For me, it was just a matter of regularly practicing it in games. When I was first practicing it, it wasn't worth the time it took in game to do it, and I didn't trust my results very much, but after doing it for a while I became more accurate with it.

One thing I also did a couple of times was counting professional games either a few moves from the end or just before a commentator would say how much one side was winning by. I could then compare the score I calculated with the actual score of the game. This way I would both get feedback on my accuracy in counting and I would actually have enough time to complete my count without worrying about a game clock. When I first started to count games I was really slow at doing it, but with practice like this I was able to get fast enough to be able to count during live games.

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Draw a diagram here of the game you lost by 40+ points, showing the territory you counted for black and white and then we can see what you are doing wrong. I would be interested to see how a 4 dan can be so wrong if you actually counted, instead of just feeling you were winning because you killed something.

http://senseis.xmp.net/tools/sgf2diagram.php is useful.

This is the position (I just realized that I only got 0.5 komi since I played against someone weaker, on the board I have 43 points less). Just now I tried recounting it 3 times, but I counted it to be very close each time.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 263
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . X O X X X X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O X O O O . O . . . . O O |
$$ | . . X O O . O X X O O . O O O O O X O |
$$ | . O O X X O O . X X X O X X O X X X X |
$$ | O . O O X X O X X O X O X . X X . . . |
$$ | X O O X X O O X X O O O X X X X O . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X O . O O X O X O . O . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X O O O X X . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O O X X X . X O X X X . |
$$ | X X X X X X O . O X . O X . X X O . . |
$$ | X O X O X O O O X X . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | O O O O O O X O O O X O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X X X X O . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . O O O X O X . X X O . O O O X |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O X . . . . . X X X X |
$$ | . . O , O X O O O X . . . X X X O O O |
$$ | . . . O . O O X X . . X . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . X . . . X X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X . X . . X O O O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Please clarify: is your problem a) judging which intersections to consider territory or b) counting the intersections that are already known to be territory?

My problem is counting the intersections that are already known to be territory.

First count Black's territory. Remember the number. Then count White's territory. Form the difference and include the komi (for White!).

To count a player's territory, proceed region by region. Count each region exactly once. Although you count region by region, you update and increment only one number per player. When you have determined a number of the first region, start with it when counting the second region etc. Thereby you do not need to recall one number per region. It suffices to recall one number per player, for all his regions together. And the prisoner stones of opposing colour; after the last region, add that number of prisoners.

To count a region, first count the intersections occupied by dead opposing stones, then count the empty intersections. For each intersections occupied by a dead opposing stone, add 2 to the total number for the player. For each empty intersection, add 1. When counting a region's intersections occupied by dead opposing stones, proceed line by line of the board from left to right. When counting a region's empty intersections, proceed line by line of the board from left to right. Do not accidentally miss a line or scan a line twice.

Whatever needs to be done, also change a number exactly by the summond. Never forget the hundreds or the tens of your currently updated number.

Practice this procedure, until you do it correctly without failure. Only afterwards, consider using simplifications.

The procedure is slow, but should be safe.

I got ~60 for white (since I already knew the game was 40 off I didn't worry about what exactly, less than 65) and ~105 for black (I counted ninety-nine -> fifty -> fifty one in my head and once I realised I probably missed a moku or two, but more than 100 for sure). It's not that hard, once the game is almost over.

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But it is hard for me.

So you are probably missing out some large areas or doing something wrong in that big black territory on the right with all the dead stones. I essentially use the method RJ says but make a few shortcuts of counting pairs of empty intersections if the areas are quite sparse so it won't make me make mistakes.

So for an easy example here is how I count the lower left. I've used letters to mark the order of points I go through in my head. So the two 'a's I say "two", the 'b's "four" etc to "twenty" for the 'j's. The next bit of the territory is irregular so you could go back to counting in ones but I've had enough practice that I keep doind a bit like that in twos as marked, snaking up and down the columns of the board as marked making sure to not go back into the 2x3 block that ends with the 'j's. This technique is faster once you can do it, but maybe for you you should count in ones from the h point as it gets irregular down below and its easy to double count that 2x3 area.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 263
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . X O X X X X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O X O O O . O . . . . O O |
$$ | . . X O O . O X X O O . O O O O O X O |
$$ | . O O X X O O . X X X O X X O X X X X |
$$ | O . O O X X O X X O X O X . X X . . . |
$$ | X O O X X O O X X O O O X X X X O . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X O . O O X O X O . O . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X O O O X X . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O O X X X . X O X X X . |
$$ | X X X X X X O . O X . O X . X X O . . |
$$ | X O X O X O O O X X . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | O O O O O O X O O O X O . . . . . X . |
$$ | a a h h O X X X X X X O . O . . O X . |
$$ | b b i i O O O X O X . X X O . O O O X |
$$ | c c j j O X X X O X . . . . . X X X X |
$$ | d d O m O X O O O X . . . X X X O O O |
$$ | e e k O m O O X X . . X . O X O O . . |
$$ | f f k l O O X . X . . . X X O O . O . |
$$ | g g l O X X X X . X . . X O O O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And for that black territory here's the order I go, counting in ones as it's such a mess. I can't write a q on the white stone so I just marked it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 263
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . X O X X X X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O X O O O . O . . . . O O |
$$ | . . X O O . O X X O O . O O O O O X O |
$$ | . O O X X O O . X X X O X X O X X X X |
$$ | O . O O X X O X X O X O X . X X . . . |
$$ | X O O X X O O X X O O O X X X X O . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X O . O O X O X O . O . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X O O O X X . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O O X X X . X O X X X . |
$$ | X X X X X X O . O X l O X . X X O . . |
$$ | X O X O X O O O X X k O O X X O O . . |
$$ | O O O O O O X O O O X W . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X X X X W . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . O O O X O X j X X O . O O O X |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O X i p . . . X X X X |
$$ | . . O , O X O O O X h o . X X X O O O |
$$ | . . . O . O O X X d g X . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X a X c f n X X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X b X e m X O O O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But actually in that game black's territory is so huge I would not bother to count precisely but estimate it first by drawing a box something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Position at move 263
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . X O X X X X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O X O O O . O . . . . O O |
$$ | . . X O O . O X X O O . O O O O O X O |
$$ | . O O X X O O . X X X O X X O X X X X |
$$ | O . O O X X O X X O X O X . X X . . . |
$$ | X O O X X O O X X O O O X X X X O . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X O . O O X O X O . O . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X O O O X X . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O O X X X . X O X X X . |
$$ | X X X X X X O . O X . O X . X X O . . |
$$ | X O X O X O O O X X . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | O O O O O O X O O O X O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X X X X O . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . O O O X O X . X X O . O O O X |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O X . . . . . X X X X |
$$ | . . O , O X O O O X . . . X X X O O O |
$$ | . . . O . O O X X . . X . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . X . . . X X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X . X . . X O O O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------$$
$$ {AR M15 L15}
$$ {LN M15 S15}
$$ {AR S15 T15}
$$ {LN L5 T5}
$$ {AR L14 L15}
$$ {LN L14 L6}
$$ {AR L6 L5}
$$ {LN T15 T5}[/go]

That's 11 tall and 9 wide. There's about as many dead white stones as alive black ones inside (by eye, and also logically it's unusual for one player to die in gote many times) so they cancel out. There's a bunch of stones instead of territory at the top left, but also there's some territory outside the box at the bottom middle of the board, and they're about the same. So black has around 99 points here, plus 10 on the left, so about 110. Counting white in the normal 1-2-3 or pairs rather than multiplying box way gets something a lot less than 110 so I wouldn't bother counting that big territory accurately.

P.S. don't forget prisoners, you didn't tell us how many there were.

I've been trying to work on counting myself recently. I think a big thing for me was dealing with large dead groups and I think that may also be where your miscounting is occurring.

When counting make sure to count all dead stones as 2 points for your opponent on that intersection, not just one. I used to just count intersections and ignore the dead stones, but that only works if you each have about the same number of dead stones.

There are 23 dead white stones on the board so those intersections are worth a total of 46 for black. Add then the intersections of territory without dead stones - 61 - and black has 107 points on the board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Black's points - 107
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . X O X X X X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O X O O O . O . . . . O O |
$$ | . . X O O . O X X O O . O O O O O X O |
$$ | . O O X X O O . X X X O X X O X X X X |
$$ | O . O O X X O X X O X O X C X X C C C |
$$ | X O O X X O O X X O O O X X X X W C C |
$$ | X X X X X X X X O . O O X W X W C W C |
$$ | C C C W C C X X O O O X X C W C W C C |
$$ | C C C C X X O O O X X X C X W X X X C |
$$ | X X X X X X O . O X C W X C X X W C C |
$$ | X O X O X O O O X X C W W X X W W C C |
$$ | O O O O O O X O O O X W C C C C C X C |
$$ | . . . . O X X X X X X W C W C C W X C |
$$ | . . . . O O O X O X C X X W C W W W X |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O X C C C C C X X X X |
$$ | . . O , O X O O O X C C C X X X O O O |
$$ | . . . O . O O X X C C X C W X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X C X C C C X X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X C X C C X O O O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So white has 59 points without black stones on them and there are 2 dead black stones worth 4 points. That totals to 63 points - or a 44 point loss.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ White's points - 63
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | C C C B O X X X X O O C O C C C C C C |
$$ | C C O C O O O X O O O C O C C C C O O |
$$ | C C B O O C O X X O O C O O O O O X O |
$$ | C O O X X O O . X X X O X X O X X X X |
$$ | O C O O X X O X X O X O X . X X . . . |
$$ | X O O X X O O X X O O O X X X X O . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X O C O O X O X O . O . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X O O O X X . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O O X X X . X O X X X . |
$$ | X X X X X X O C O X . O X . X X O . . |
$$ | X O X O X O O O X X . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | O O O O O O X O O O X O . . . . . X . |
$$ | C C C C O X X X X X X O . O . . O X . |
$$ | C C C C O O O X O X . X X O . O O O X |
$$ | C C C C O X X X O X . . . . . X X X X |
$$ | C C O C O X O O O X . . . X X X O O O |
$$ | C C C O C O O X X . . X . O X O O C C |
$$ | C C C C O O X . X . . . X X O O C O C |
$$ | C C C O X X X X . X . . X O O O C C C |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Prisoners also need to be taken into account. Was this the error in counting?

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

To avoid double-counting or missing a line, go zig-zag: line 1 left-to-right, one up, line 2 right-to-left, one up, line 3 left-to-right, etc. Jumping back to the other side of a large area to start a new line is more error-prone.

Ah, there's hope for me yet

As you don't give your KGS handle is it hard to check, but it is hard to believe that you can reach a solid 4d on KGS without being able to count. Was it gained through a large number of blitz games won on time? If you really do have a solid 4d there then it is a sad reflection on the KGS rating system.

_________________
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).

why? I knew a dan level player who couldn't count. He had to have his dad count the score for him (he was only 6 years old at the time).

I have many accounts, but each is at least 4d (I don't only play blitz). I'm WBaduk 7d, btw.

I wish there were counting problem books. Some of the positional judgement books have some problems, but it would be nice to have a tsumego type book with the board position on one page and the answer with the number and squares that were counted on the next. I know counting positions is sort of voodoo, but I think there should be enough positions that are figured out at the amateur level to fill a book or two.

Every game you play or watch is a counting problem surely?

Yeah, it's kind of like tesuji though, it's one thing to make them up by yourself, it's another to learn from the masters.