I am not sure you can mandate how a player is to feel about a game, or force such feelings by introduction of new options.

I seriously think you are trying to solve a problem that does not exist.
If you feel better about the game when you don't see his clock, don't look or - as somebody mentioned - put a sticky over it, or something. Do not worry how he feels, its none of your business, to be honest. Maybe he does not like club games, maybe he would find it annoying, or maybe not... he also has the option to put a sticky on, if he so chooses.

At best, I would say that if it makes you feel better not to see the clock, maybe an option to hide it on your screen would be useful. But, as stated above - this is such a trivial issue, not really worth the coding and interface clutter. No point wasting resources, but if you rally run low on stickies, maybe its the way to go...

Just my 2c. Carry on.

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- Bantari
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I haven't addressed the sticky note suggestion before because I think it's obvious that it misses the point entirely. But since it keeps cropping up, let me spell it out for you and the others. There is no practical way you could use a sticky note to hide your clock from your opponent. And I don't have any issues with being able to see my opponent's clock. So please stop with this nonsense.

Actually I thought about it again and I think it's a great idea.

I don't know the history of how timing go games evolved (although I believe this forum would have been a good place to start asking) but it would have been fairer for both the players and the game if the opponent's clock was originally hidden (maybe not your own clock though, trying to remember how much time you have left might detract from the game and could be a headache).



Walleye is not trying to control how anyone feels or force anything on anyone. Walleye started the thread by saying he was surprised the option wasn't there, if a player wanted to choose it, that is.

Also if I understand,is simply suggesting that it may encourage a better attitude to the game. I don't know anyone that would play time games with their opponent in a casual club setting and I think Walleye's point is that that would be much more difficult when you can't see your opponent's clock.



If hiding your opponent's clock had been the default way* to play from the beginning, then there would be no "gaming" the other player and making quick moves when you know, for instance, that they are running out of time. Note that, as someone mentioned earlier in the thread, even pros apparently use such tactics. I do not approve of that.

*Or at least a recognized choice. Choice is good. Another commentator said they would not want 100 choices or something. Hiding the clock is just one choice and it would not even be necessary to make it each time you play if you play on a server. Just indicate it as a preference in settings and then automatch or game creation will remember it, like all the other choices (i.e. Which rule set and how much time.).

edit: Walleye, the real problem - as you are no doubt are painfully aware - is that you suggested this idea on L19; the largest, friendliest but sometimes most ridiculously argumentative internet forum to discuss go.

Yes, it is a really sensible and practical idea. Unfortunately the only programmers that I think would consider it would be the NovOGS guys. If I was a programmer and I was making a server I would implement it.

Ok, so lets recap what I think you are after.
What you *really* suggest is for your opponent to be unable to see *your* clock because then you think *you* will feel its more of a club game? Are you really trying to affect your own feelings by controlling what somebody else sees on their screen, maybe a few thousand miles away, and which you have no way of knowing anyways?

To be honest - I can't see how you possibly make such connection. For example - can you tell which of your opponents never even look at your time, or maybe even have a sticky on their screens? If you cannot, then forcing the issue with options will change absolutely nothing for you.

Please do not get me wrong - as an option, such thing is clearly doable, maybe even good. I just really really do not understand your reasoning for that. It just does not make sense to me.2

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- Bantari
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Since you quote me, let me explain what I mean here.


My understanding was that his reason for such option is that the game would feel more like a "club game". I don't understand that.


I have no issue with that. My guess is - the option does not exist (yet?) because there was no need for it, i.e. nobody thought of it having any value, or even of it in general. There are literally millions of options that could be implemented but are not, and this is just one of them. So this takes care of the past. Very simple and trivial.

Now the future. Will such option be implemented and should it?
I think, as somebody wisely said in here, that for a new option to get implemented there first must be a clear need, or at least a good justification for it. Otherwise we will drown in options nobody needs, wants, or uses - just for a sheer joy of having options. And this is what I think we are after here - deciding if there is a need for such option.

Personally, I contribute to this discussion by digging into the OPs reasoning, which I am not sure I understand. It might be a great idea, and a good reason, but it might not. What he says makes no sense to me for now, so I dig. That's all.

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If this should be the reason for hiding the clocks, preventing time-sujis and "gaming", then time systems already exist (on all servers, I think) which solve that problem nicely.

Actually - hiding a clock would not solve the problem you have, not really. Not only do people usually have an idea how much time you have left even without looking at the clock, but a 3rd-party applications could easily be built to keep track of time, even if the server does not show the clock. Would such application give an advantage to those who use it vs. those who do not?

So, in this light, the option if widely used might introduce more problems than it solves.
And I still do not see how it solves any one problem.

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- Bantari
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Thanks for re-iterating my point. What is about that which you don't understand?



How do these time systems prevent someone from gaming me if I am running out of time?



Such as someone looking at a stopwatch or clock and timing me that way? If someone has that much time on their hands then I don't know what to say. It doesn't invalidate the value of Walleye's proposal though.

I'm really sorry but I'm not sure I can explain any of this any clearer than I have so forgive me if I don't reply.

I wonder if, with the goal of creating a more 'club-like' atmosphere, it might be better to start an online club with time settings that work well for that purpose, or none at all. There is certainly likely to be more civility in a group where everyone plays each other frequently, and I get the (possibly mistaken) impression that this is what Walleye is really after.

Sarcasm aside, are you being difficult on purpose?
I understand what you say, just don't see how this solves the problem any better. If there even is a problem. Which was the point of my post, not the fact that I don't understand your words. Just to reiterate.


Under fisher time, for example, you should never run out of time. Under japanese byo-yomi, even if you *can* run out of time, gaming is not any easier than not seeing the clock to begin with. With long time limits, or no time limits at all - such gaming is impossible. Some on all of it is already implemented on all servers, as far as I know.


This is what I am trying to understand - what *is* the value of the proposal? Since I doubt it will make people feel like a "club game" (this should be best accomplished with no time limits, methinks) and it will not solve the gaming "problem" any better than what we already have...

If there is a good value in it, lets try doing it. But is there?

PS>
If, as you say, you don't know what to say - best is just saying nothing.

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In my opinion, "club atmosphere" is impossible in an anonymous server setting. What makes playing in clubs to be so nice is not the clock - I often played timed games in a club, and it was still nice.

What makes clubs nice is the fact that people are face-to-face, and so some of the behavior displayed on the servers does not usually/ever happen. And people know each other and are comfortable. This creates a social settings in which things like rank chasing, urge to escape, time gaming, and so on is much harder, if it ever happens at all.

I remember a conversation I have had with a store owner in Hong Kong some time back. He was proud and told me stories of all the people he cheated on the prices. When I asked him if he is afraid of any reputation hits because of that, he was just laughing... he said there are so many people coming in, all strangers, it does not matter how many he cheats, there will always be customers (read: suckers.) This is sort-of a server situation.

A club is more like a small-town diner dance. If you misbehave, word will quickly spread and nobody will dance with you anymore. So you behave and try to be nice.

I am not sure how this can be accomplished by options and rules. In case of the store owner I mentioned, options (go to a different store) and rules (cheating is against the law) already exists, and they change nothing. At least - this is what I think.

Unless you create your own "room" and restrict your interaction to a small group of people you know, with an occasional stranger invited, or something like that. This option already exists on most servers as well.

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- Bantari
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Sorry about that. Sometimes I can't tell whether you genuinely don't understand something or you are being difficult on purpose. For instance after I said,


You said,



I was wondering whether you even read my post at that point. I was about to reply when you posted the third time identifying what I think the justification is for the hidden clock feature and quote me.

Please accept my apology for being sarcastic. There's no excuse for that but I hope you can imagine why I responded that way and at least not hold it against me.

For the time systems I was genuinely asking you a question because I only play with Canadian and so I actually forgot about the unique feature of Japanese byo-yomi and Fischer. If the opponent can see my clock, then whether they use Japanese or Fischer, it's true I have more of a time buffer but that doesn't stop them making quick moves if they can afford to (let's say they are stronger or know several safe moves which they can quickly play and so put pressure on me as my time buffer runs down).

Having said all that, you've established that the "hidden clock" feature (and just to make sure we're on the same page (page 4 )I am referring only to your opponent's clock being hidden, not yours) is not as useful as I thought. I still think it would deter someone from "gaming" you since it's not as easy for them if they can't glance at your clock.

But I don't care enough about this to keep talking about it and I care more that you've no hard feelings against me. Thank you.

If you think of it as just like a casual club game, you can just play unlimited time on a go server. But unlike a club atmosphere, you will probably play with people you don't know, and thus the game could last much longer than you want with an unlimited time setting. So playing on a go server is probably not much of a "clubby" atmosphere unless you always play against people you know.

Let's say a go server implements your idea of hiding the clock from your opponent and you are playing against someone you don't know. If you both choose to hide your clocks and if your opponent disconnects and comes back days later, are you sure you both would remember how much time is left on each other's clocks? How would resuming such a game bring a "clubby" atmosphere to the game? What if you had several such ongoing games waiting to be resumed, can you remember the details of each game when your opponents ask you to resume their games? Perhaps you say that after a resume, the opponent's time should be shown at such time, how then can you stop people from disconnecting and resuming to see your clock whenever they like?

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Go is such a beautiful game.

I am perfectly happy to accept that you may prefer certain kinds of games or features. That's just different strokes for different folks.

However, I do object to these sort of moral judgments. If both players play under equal conditions, then how can we reasonably say that the setup is unfair? What is really unfair is the attribution of better/worse attitude to people who use tactics with legitimate probabilities of success (i.e., not trolling). It is perfectly fine for you to say that certain tactics make you enjoy the game less, but these comments go beyond that. I won't say that you're being ridiculous or anything like that, but I do hope that you will revise your original statement in a more neutral direction.

Also, I must reiterate that turn-based games eliminate the issues you are concerned about anyways, while hiding the time may or may not. You seem aware of OGS. Have you played there? In what ways are turn-based games inadequate for your goals?

I do sympathize with the fact that you play a lot of Canadian byo-yomi games. Perhaps your views are colored by this. I dislike Canadian byo-yomi because it involves a lot more time management than Japanese byo-yomi. With Japanese byo-yomi, I just think as much as I can until the voice says "two" and then play my move---so simple, nearly no time management required late in the game.

Don't get me wrong, I sympathize with a lot of what you wrote. However, if the above isn't "time management", I don't know what is!

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Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

I'm only replying to you since you wrote so much and asked me questions.

If my comments have genuinely disappointed you then I'm sorry. I also agree with everything you've said. This is the first, and I believe, the last time I'll be putting my foot in a contentious issue though, so I doubt I'll be making any more inaccurate or divisive comments anywhere else either.



I don't have any goals, I don't have a problem with anyone trying to pressure me under time (like I said at the start, I play with enough time and manage it well so I can't actually remember the last time that happened). I was just saying that I thought I could see some value in Walleye's idea. It's clearly not as straightforward as I thought and I realize that now.

As for Nova/OGS, no I haven't tried it but I respect the programmers who came together and made it. By calling it novogs I was trying to make a pun, maybe that didn't translate very well - novo (new) gs (game server).



I used to think Japanese byo-yomi was the best but I've got used to Canadian and - just like people have rightly pointed out about the degree of necessity for a hidden clock feature (very little need if any) - I'm not sure the degree of interference that Canadian actually has (if any) on my game now.

Thanks for being level-headed in your reply.

Hi Dave, (off-topic)

Ed,

See my screed on timing systems. Basing your reading on the byo-yomi period has nothing to do with the patterns in the use of time we observe when people are unconstrained. Whether one system involves more complex "time management" than another is not really the point. However, since thinking for the same amount of time each move is so unnatural, I would say that byo-yomi requires more time management than canadian. In fact, I did say that (on SL)!

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Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

You phrase your recap in the form of questions which you seem to address to me. Did you expect me to answer them? I'm afraid I don't understand what you are talking about.

The only thing I'm after is to have a discussion and to hear people's opinion.

This is one of the things that came up in the discussion, among a few others. I've explained this point already. Was there anything specific you failed to understand?


It has already been suggested that the programmers who designed the servers were likely trying to replicate the real clocks used in tournaments. I doubt they thought of the opponent's clock visibility as optional since it's not optional in the real clocks (at least not in the clocks I've seen). This is not the same as saying they thought it had no value. Yet you make no distinction between these two possibilities. I wonder why?


I think you got a bit confused here. We don't have to decide anything. We are not a committee overseeing server development.

I see it as a game option that will need to be accepted by both players before the game begins and will affect both players equally during the game. If the players agree to use this option, they will be shown their own clocks only. They don't need to remember anything, the server will take care of it.