Hello,

In my playing, I mainly play small moves like theses :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . X . X . .
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . .[/go]

or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . X . . . .
$$ . . . X . .
$$ . . . . . .[/go]

I'm award that playing too many of these small moves is inefficent... but I have difficulties playing larger move, by fear of being cut...
So I play some kind of "too strong structures" which "often" lives but without making enough points for me to win the game.

I don't know where to start to improve this... are there topics that may help me ? thx

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

Hi oca, it is very difficult to talk about this in the abstract or in general.

For example, you can start by studying this basic 2-space jump, on the 3rd line.
Homework 1: Can W cut this jump ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Homework 2: study this joseki. Notice the shapes you asked about:
the keima [ - ], the keima [ - ], the 2-space jump [ - ] --

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . 2 . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

I went through a phase where I played small connected moves. The problem is that larger moves aren't necessarily connected, furthermore there are more tesuji involved with larger moves, since there are more ways to cut, so it becomes difficult to pick the appropriate move, since there are so many possible outcomes.

Whow thanks ! I did my best to cut but I didn't succeded in a situation that close to the border. is there a way to cut for white ?

tried a lot of variants, my best try being this one

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . 6 4 1 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 . B 3 2 B . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 9 0 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

I will study the joseki now...

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

There's the classic advice of doing go problems. That can teach you tesuji involved in cutting or connecting your stones when they're farther apart. If you can read that your stones are safe for the moment, you can be more confident playing the larger jumps.

Go Teaching Ladder is a great resource for seeing amateur games with comments by stronger players. See how players above your rank use small and large jumps, when it works and when it fails.

Finally, it might be helpful to think about it this way: If you play very safely, your opponent gets ahead just playing normal moves. If you play moderately aggressively, you've created opportunities for your opponent to cut and kill your groups. But, you're making him find strong moves to pull off the attack. You're giving him the opportunity to overplay and fall behind. It's better for your opponent to kill your stones, but really have to work for the kills, then for him to stroll easily to a small win.

was wrong -- find the correct move.
was wrong -- find the correct move.

Thanks EdLee, here is my second try...
for I will set a ladder...
and for , force white to crawl to get a big wall in return.
is that correct ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 4 1 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 0 8 X 3 2 X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

To paloma :
Thanks for the detailed answer

BTW : I'm totally amazed by the quality of replies on this forum... really outstanding

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

No.

Every move you make must have a purpose. (If it has more than one purpose, even better.)

What are you trying to do here ? What is the original question ?
( What does the ladder have to do with the original question ? )

If B plays as you did above, what is W's correct ?

Atari at I suppose... and neither a nor b would really help me that much as the marked stone seem to became weak

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . a 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . 7 4 1 b . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . B 3 2 X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Yes I agree, wrong direction... back to assuming a larger move and connecting the two stones to get a base.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . a 4 1 . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X 3 2 X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

I think and just died this way, but I was first a bit worried about at "a"
that's why I play there in my first try.

but now I think I can handle it. may be something like that (small moves again but ok in that situation I suppose...)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . 1 X O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W at (a) or (b)
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . a 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . 7 4 1 b . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 B 3 2 X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Correct. By "weak" you mean "dead" in this case, because kills -- this is why above is wrong.
has nothing to do with the original question: can W cut the 2-space jump ?

The atari above is the only move for W, not the second-line turn in your original variation:

Correct.If you are worried about at (a), then the correct thing to do is READ it out.

Not OK. What is the purpose of ?

( The - exchange is good for B, bad for W. It makes a bad shape for W. )

After you've seen the above variations so far, you can now see that
your original wedge is a bad move -- bad instinct on your part -- W would not play there.

and was the only moves I found to save both the marked stone and menaced by a ladder at (a).
I suppose both white stones are now saved as I think black is forced to play (b)

[edit]full wrong, can't save both groupes after black at (b)...[edit]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . b 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 5 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . a 1 X W , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

I tried that too but seems that white cannot save both and: in this variante when black plays

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 4 1 X W . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

But maybe I'm just too focused on saving stones...

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

The key thing you should do is count liberties. With the correct block for 6 white's two cutting stones only have 2 liberties and all of yours have more. So if your stones get in danger you can capture the white cutting stones to connect all your stones together. So for 4 above it might be even better to laugh in white's face and tenuki, though your 4 is a nice thick move which reduces opportunities for white to get some useful forcing moves in exchange for his dead stones.

True, I should be more confident on my counting. fear is never a good friend...



Thanks for the lesson, I think I've got it, I will now try the same on the 4th just to see the difference
I suppose I should try to build a kind of vocabulary of moves (I mean not just find their name on internet but really experience them) and start walking before running

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . 1 . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

to came back to the joseki,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . 2 . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

I really understand better and I'm now confident with it, it can't be cut.
For white, is at (a) a valid option too ? oh... but then black would enter at 3-3 and play the 3-3 invasion joseki instead right ?

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

Black can play the same joseki if white played at A. The difference is that at some point white will have to do something about the open skirt by making an extension or otherwise fixing it, making it somewhat gote, though it can be tenukied. In exchange, white has more strength in the center.

For homework, later in the game the position is here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Can white cut, and if so or not, what happens?

The original question was whether W can cut the 2-space jump --
what does saving or have to do with this question ?
What does have to do with this question ?Yes.

tha't's allreay hard for me ... let's try anyway and say "YES", white can cut.
may something like that... :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 7 2 8 , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X 5 1 X . Q . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 6 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

So close! You were doing great until the final move for B. In this problem, B is trying to connect some stones. Those stones count as being connected if B captures any potential W cutting stones. Other stones are irrelevant and do not need to be saved. Focus your attention on the main problem ....