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 Post subject: Re: 3.3 invasion joseki problem
Post #21 Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:54 am 
Oza

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Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Setting aside the actual punishment variant and looking at black's simplest reply:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 3 O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


If white then goes back to save the stone, then the result is the same as the normal joseki: Black is connected and white is alive in the corner. However, :w1: is plastered against black's wall and is for all intents and purposes already dead, AND black is leaving the joseki with sente, where he normally has to take gote. If white doesn't take :w3:, then later on, white has problems similar to what Edlee mentioned.

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Post #22 Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:46 pm 
Honinbo
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skydyr wrote:
looking at black's simplest reply:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 3 O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
"simplest" here is maybe misleading. The connect :b2: above is another nonsense move, like :w1: itself.
Perhaps "simple-minded" ?

The actual simplest, correct, and only local reply for B is still the atari:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 2 O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
skydyr wrote:
However, :w1: is ... for all intents and purposes already dead
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 3 O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Not at all. Far from it. We can say :w1: is badly placed and damaged.
But we cannot say it's "for all intents and purposes already dead."
It still has lots of aji. If the nearby conditions change in the future,
it can even come back and attack B's wall.

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 Post subject: Re: 3.3 invasion joseki problem
Post #23 Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:15 am 
Dies in gote

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Hi i was looking at avalanche joseki and i have a question what if he cuts at :w4: what approach should i take?
Attachment:
joseki .png
joseki .png [ 8.01 KiB | Viewed 2784 times ]

It seems perfectly fine to me, is this another joseki and if yeah what it is the name so i can have a look at it. Thanks in advance.

Ps:Tried to uploaded at sgf format but for some reason i kept taking the invalid game msg, is there something wrong with the site because i did all the steps from the how to post sgf thread.

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 Post subject: Re: 3.3 invasion joseki problem
Post #24 Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:20 am 
Judan

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That's not the avalanche joseki, 2 is bad but not awful, 3 is awful and game losing move, 4 is good move and only move. 5 is black resign. Avalanche joseki is 2 at d15, then 3 and then 4 at 2. Move order is very important in Go.


This post by Uberdude was liked by: illluck
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 Post subject: Re: 3.3 invasion joseki problem
Post #25 Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:31 am 
Dies in gote

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Uberdude wrote:
That's not the avalanche joseki, 2 is bad but not awful, 3 is awful and game losing move, 4 is good move and only move. 5 is black resign. Avalanche joseki is 2 at d15, then 3 and then 4 at 2. Move order is very important in Go.

Yeah you are right i mixed up the move order sorry. On a funny note now that i looked up this position there are some pro games played with this continuation in a corner.

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 Post subject: Re: 3.3 invasion joseki problem
Post #26 Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:40 am 
Judan

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I doubt there are pro games with these moves in this order. More likely this shape arose as a result of an ignored ko threat or ladder breaker on a shimari.

P.S. lordish based on your posts here I think you would do better to improve your basic instincts than study joseki. http://senseis.xmp.net/?BasicInstincts

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