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Offline logan
 Post subject: White to Play
Post #1 Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:34 pm 
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Noriyuki Nakayama 7p, Tales of Men Crazy about Go, trans. John Power (Abridged) wrote:
Some years after I had learnt to play go, I encountered an extraordinarily strong player in a Shinjuku go club. [H]e was a descendent of a samurai.

He sat down heavily on the tatami mat, placed the bowl with the white stones between his knees, looked doubtfully at me and muttered: "Shall we have you try three stones?"

I was stupefied. I played on even with Takeda Toshiro, the strongest player at this go club. With three stones, I was confident I could hold my own even against Go Seigen, who at this time was at his peak.

This game took place 30 years ago, but I still remember the fuseki. The moves up to 22 are the perfectly ordinary two-space pincer joseki. While I was wondering how White could expect to win playing straight forward moves like this, the samurai played in a strange place with 25.

I now realize 25 is a magnificent move. I had no idea how to answer.

"What's up? You're taking your time," laughed the samurai. I don't remember how I played after this, but I do remember that White forced me to resign.

This samurai was Takehara Kintaro, known and feared throughout the amateur go world as 'Devil Takehara'. He enjoyed his heyday in the period before the Kikuchi-Murakami group came to prominence.

Some people dismissed him as a braggart, but this was because of his unconventional personality. Year later, at a function organized by the magazine, he scored an easy win on black against Watanabe Shokichi 9-dan, which shows that he was no mere braggart.

So where did White play 25?

Image


Last edited by logan on Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:42 am, edited 4 times in total.
This post by logan was liked by: Splatted
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Offline moyoaji
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #2 Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:43 pm 
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I would guess the upper right 3-3. I've seen that as an important point in one of Nick Sibicky's lectures. When your opponent responds to the cap of a 10-3 stone with the the knight's move he said you should take the 3-3 right away. I don't see that being different with the stone being a 9-3 stone.

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I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
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-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Offline Shenoute
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #3 Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:03 am 
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I remember reading this in a Go World :D

"You've played 10 moves and all you've done is create a target for white to attack" (or something like that, I'm quoting from memory).

This post by Shenoute was liked by: RBerenguel
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #4 Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:39 am 
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I'm looking at the cap at E8
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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #5 Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:38 pm 
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h11 seems cool (or can we h10 with the f11/13 peeps in reserve) but then black c9 or d9 so maybe we should just boldly cap at e8. b runs and splits the top group but that has k17 for sabaki.
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Offline logan
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #6 Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:20 pm 
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I'll post the solution tomorrow. Give you all another day :)
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Offline DrStraw
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #7 Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:49 pm 
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This game does not look familiar so I looked in the Treasure Chest Enigma. I cannot find it in there. Are you sure that is the source?

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Offline logan
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #8 Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:20 pm 
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A slip, it was taken from Tales of Men Crazy about Go, the sequel to the source of the The Treasure Chest Enigma.

Were you trying to cheat DrStraw? ;-)
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Offline DrStraw
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #9 Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:15 pm 
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logan wrote:
A slip, it was taken from Tales of Men Crazy about Go, the sequel to the source of the The Treasure Chest Enigma.

Were you trying to cheat DrStraw? ;-)


No, I just was pretty sure I had not seen it and also was confident that I would remember it had it been in that book. In other words, had your reference been correct I probably would already know the answer.

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Offline logan
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #10 Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:21 pm 
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Well, now that you know that you don't know I want to know: can you figure it out so you'll know?
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Offline DrStraw
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #11 Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:32 pm 
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logan wrote:
Well, now that you know that you don't know I want to know: can you figure it out so you'll know?


No. I stopped studying 25 years ago. And this is the study group so I don't have a chance.

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Offline oca
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #12 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:49 am 
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tengen

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Offline logan
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #13 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:27 pm 
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oca is right, the answer is tengen once again. Let's see the reasoning:

jk



Here's the real answer with an explanation from Noriyuki Nakayama (Black).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm25
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . c d . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . b . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Noriyuki Nakayama wrote:
Whether Black plays the next at 'a' or 'b', White gets the nasty peep at 'c'. Black could swallow his pride and make the 'dog's face' move of 'd', despite its inefficiency, but then White 'e' would be annoying.

After the game, I asked the samurai how I should have played with 26, but instead of answering directly he just made the comment: 'I don't like the moves to Black 22. You've played ten moves and all you've done is create a target for attack.' He then abruptly departed, as if he'd just remembered an appointment.


Nice memory Shenoute :)
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #14 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:50 pm 
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logan wrote:
...
jk



Here's the real answer with an explanation from Noriyuki Nakayama (Black).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm25
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . c d . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . b . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Noriyuki Nakayama wrote:
Whether Black plays the next at 'a' or 'b', White gets the nasty peep at 'c'. Black could swallow his pride and make the 'dog's face' move of 'd', despite its inefficiency, but then White 'e' would be annoying.

After the game, I asked the samurai how I should have played with 26, but instead of answering directly he just made the comment: 'I don't like the moves to Black 22. You've played ten moves and all you've done is create a target for attack.' He then abruptly departed, as if he'd just remembered an appointment.


Nice memory Shenoute :)

So close, and yet so far...
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Offline DrStraw
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #15 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:57 pm 
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logan wrote:
oca is right, the answer is tengen once again. Let's see the reasoning:

jk



Here's the real answer with an explanation from Noriyuki Nakayama (Black).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm25
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . c d . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . b . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Noriyuki Nakayama wrote:
Whether Black plays the next at 'a' or 'b', White gets the nasty peep at 'c'. Black could swallow his pride and make the 'dog's face' move of 'd', despite its inefficiency, but then White 'e' would be annoying.

After the game, I asked the samurai how I should have played with 26, but instead of answering directly he just made the comment: 'I don't like the moves to Black 22. You've played ten moves and all you've done is create a target for attack.' He then abruptly departed, as if he'd just remembered an appointment.


Nice memory Shenoute :)


Well, I didn't analyze it but based on the context of the thread I looked for something really bizarre. I thought of the attachment one point above and to the left of the real answer. But, as I said, that was so bizarre it could not be correct.

Nice to see that with my declining ability I can still be in the general area. :shock:

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Offline oca
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #16 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:54 pm 
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logan wrote:
After the game, I asked the samurai how I should have played with 26

The correct move for :b26: is tengen :blackeye: (as tengen cannot be wrong... no.... it cannot, there is only one tengen... one to rule them all)

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Offline Connection
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #17 Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:53 pm 
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I am not quite sure if I understand correctly, so why would white "e" be annoying after black played "d"?
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Offline gowan
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #18 Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:28 am 
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This story was translated by John Power and published in Go World issue number 50 (winter 1987-1988). There are other good stories in that issue, including the one which became the origin of the story about wearing down of the nail the right hand index finger.
Just a small sample of the wonders available in the DVDs of Go World :)

Connection, WHite "e" would be annoying to Black because it would block the large black group from access to the left side and also, at the same time, enlarge White's potential territory there.
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Offline logan
 Post subject: Re: White to Play
Post #19 Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:41 am 
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Connection wrote:
I am not quite sure if I understand correctly, so why would white "e" be annoying after black played "d"?
Because if White played 'e' first, Black would most certainly not reply with 'd'. So after White 25, Black 'd'. White 'e' it's as though Black was forced to play 'd' after White 'e'. A very painful result. This sort of move analysis is called, 'tewari' analysis.
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