Well, my usual complaint remains, as it did with chess, which I didn't play but my brother did and won a few trophies when he was a boy, the absurd elitism of the players. Perhaps this complaint is unfounded and based on an irrational fear of people, or simply my unfamiliarity with the culture. Don't know. Perhaps I am the elitist here, for not taking someone's amazing talent seriously enough.

However, I have always felt that there was a certain nightmare quality of taking something fun, and then exalting it to the point where it is no longer fun anymore, because only the game is important anymore, and winning, instead of just, a good way to spend free time. Perhaps I'm just worrying too much though. My main outlook on life has always been to always look on the bright side of life. Maybe that's something I just find humorous. Isn't the amount of competition there is what is fun about it, in the end, after all?

I suppose these anxieties come from being told that I was fairly good at the game. I just started playing a lot though, maybe a year ago. I feel like I don't understand the game at all. Even when I win I don't quite understand the strategy that I used, because I play intuitively and quickly. I also don't know if it was the right strategy, or what strategy is even going on. I suppose I understand that there's something going on about a delicate balance of what is important and what is not. But even if I win I still feel that what I did is almost completely incomprehensible to me.

Well, ridiculous maybe... A bit existential angsty.

Why are you discussing high school football in a go forum?

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Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).

I feel this quote is pertinent.



I don't see football anywhere in his post. Maybe I'm blind.

At least you've been told you're "fairly good at the game."

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"This is a game that rewards patience and balance. You must think like a man of action and act like a man of thought."
-Jonas Skarssen

Yes but I'm considering leaving it completely alone because of how irritating, competitive, and grotesquely snobby I always thought they were. Do I have the wrong image? Or the right image of what obsessive board game people are like? Oh, I almost forgot to mention self centered.

And your fantasy football comment is leading me just in that direction.

Sorry to hear that! Sounds like you're playing at the wrong club

I've been really impressed by how all the folks at my local club are very friendly, welcoming, fun-loving, and helpful.

Maybe you could look around for some other clubs/meetups with people who have fun? Or seek out the people you most enjoy playing with and play more games with them?

Also, it sounds like you are mixing a bit of anxiety about your ability in here. You mentioned that sometimes you don't even understand why you lost, have you tried asking stronger players for help? Reviewing the game afterwards or posting questions on this forum? That's one of the most rewarding things I've gotten from the game: having an idea, trying it out and seeing what went wrong and really learning something new from a stronger player if I couldn't figure out the problem on my own.

No, I said I don't understand why I won. I mean, I understand why I lost... although if I don't understand how I won I guess I also to an extent don't understand why I lost. Because, I'm playing, but I don't have anything planned out in my head, or even put any words to it in my mind really, I just sort of look at what the shapes are doing.

Don't worry so much about winning or losing, about being good or bad at the game, and about understanding everything. Just play for fun, nobody is handing out grades or anything

That's what I was doing, but there's a huge ridiculous hierarchy, and they do hand out grades. I've played on IGS and sometimes it says I'm a 17 kyu and sometimes it says I'm beginner class, but for some reason IGS doesn't start at 30 kyu, anyway it's just an internet site it's probably meaningless anyway.

Post one of your games in the Game Analysis section and ask for comments. I can guarantee you will not get "grotesquely snobby" responses. When it comes to helping out a fellow L19er on their game, the experts here shine.

The ranking hierarchy, for better or worse, is part of the game.

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"This is a game that rewards patience and balance. You must think like a man of action and act like a man of thought."
-Jonas Skarssen

If you treat ranks like grades, then it sounds like you are the one who is very competitive. You don't have to think of ranks that way. One nice way to think of ranks is that your rank tells you who else would be fun to play against. It's usually more fun to play against someone who's a similar rank to you

There's a difference between being nice and being honest. And you weren't honest. If the ranks were designed that way they wouldn't be numerical according to who is better, they'd be about style of play or something.

Also, people who take themselves so seriously they consider a friendly joke the gravest of insults disgust me. I'm just saying in general board game culture can disgust me. I don't like being told to believe things that aren't true and I don't like taking the ridiculous seriously. I'm sorry I ever liked this game.

It is assumed that the game is more fun if both players have some chance of winning, or at least of scoring local victories during the game, which is all tied to skill. Style of play has pretty much zero impact on that. Players with the same style do necessarily have a more fun game. The numbers allow you to easily find an appropriate handicap, so that you can play a wider range of opponents while still making it fun for both players. The fact that IGS has a beginner class, instead of going down to 30k, is entirely based around the fact that ranks at the beginner level are very volatile and that such players can probably have some fun against any other players in the same group.

Winning can add to the fun, but personally I get the most fun out of feeling good about my play. Even if I lose, a single well-executed tesuji that I found can totally make the game for me.

I'm being completely honest. I hope I didn't offend you! I really just want to spread my love of this game!

I don't see any reason that you should let your rank/ability make you unhappy. Every game/sport has rankings/scores measured with numbers. You can choose to measure your worth by that number, but you can also choose to have fun no matter what your number is. You can try to improve that number because you love the game and think that at a higher number, you will enjoy the game more. Or you can decided that you don't enjoy studying and prefer not to improve.

Any game works this way. You can be very competitive at Scrabble and try to optimize every play and memorize all the 2 letter words. Or you can just play for fun with friends and family and use normal words you think of in the moment. If you measure your worth by your score, then you'll do the first method, but you don't have to, the second one is fine, right?

That's not what I'm complaining about. It's a far more existential problem. Why would I complain about something so meaningless when everything is meaningless?

The important clue here is, I think, what you said about being told that you are "fairly good at the game." I have seen it many times, and have to battle it myself - your ego start pumping up and your perception changes. You hang your pride on being "fairly good" and start having anxiety about losing and ultimately - about playing.

But its all about your personal perception, not about ranks or seriousness or whatever else "others" are doing - it is all internal problem. Nobody can really help you with that, I think, no change in what others do or think or say can fix your problem. Its something you have to fix yourself, or you might as well stop playing.

What helped me in the past in such situations were two thoughts:
1. I am really weak, still learning, no matter what my rank says or what others think, I am just learning, struggling, trying to do my best.
2. Nobody will care about the game I lost today when I win another tomorrow. Or the quote from somebody "Now that I am 5d, nobody cares about the games I lost when I was 5k."

In short - humility.
Well, I am still learning, its a life-long process.

PS>
About seriousness, elitism, and all that.
Go is a very deep game, and you can play it on many levels.
Many people play it for fun only and are not bothered by ratings, strength, and whatnot.
But many people take it more seriously, and they do care about that stuff. To be good at Go, if you care about being good, you need to take it seriously.

Taking Go seriously is not easy in the long run, you hit all kinds of roadblocks, bumps, and barriers. One of the hardest things is to stay motivated, to keep pushing even when the going gets tough. Some people use rank chasing and elitism to keep themselves motivated. I strongly dislike that approach, but I understand where some of this is coming from. So I usually just feel pity rather than getting angry, and try to never let it influence my own perception.

And then - some people are just jerks.
All of the above goes for almost any game you can think of, unless it is something as trivial as tic-tac-toe.

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

Well, I didn't see anything about go in the post either. And what he described seemed to me to be exactly how football is played. Maybe I just jumped to the wrong conclusion.

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Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).

Having anxiety about losing is probably one of the things holding me back the most; I can never manage to get in more than 1 to 3 games a day, especially if I happen to win in them. However, one day, I played automatch. And then I did it again, and again. Before I knew it, I had played 10 games, went 4W/6L, and played go for 3 hours straight. Once you get started playing lots of games, playing lots of games without fear gets easier.

In my opinion, at least, staying motivated comes from believeing that you're better than how you play. If you made a mistake, yell at yourself that you're better than the mistake and use that as motivation for studying harder - for actually becoming better than the mistake. It's probably inherently flawed, but if I just felt pity that I lost because of X and Y and Z, then I might say, "Oh well. Nothing I can do. Guess I'm a permanent DDK" rather than getting angry and using that anger as a start point for doing productive things. "WHAT? I LOST? WELL I'M GOING TO JUST PLAY 10X MORE GAMES, DO 50 TSUMEGO A DAY, AND READ THE ENTIRETY OF <insert X book here> WHILE PLAYING IT ON MY BOARD. I'LL SHOW YOU!"