Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

oca · **#41**

illluck wrote:

Game has ended. http://online-go.com/game/579811

I made fairly extensive use of the Malkovich log to outline my thoughts around what I believe to be the most interesting areas. I'm at work, but will give a brief overview of the game from my prospective when I'm back home later today

Thanks for the game, Oca, it was interesting. Are you interested in some other configurations?

Thanks for the game Illluck :bow:

, so intensive for me, I really enjoyed it

I didn't posted that much comments on the first game as I was dicovering OGS.
I will definitly post more on the next one.

Maybe we can try your proposition... that's would be a really different starting point...

[edit]go diagram hidden[/edit]

illluck · **#42**

A bit of my impression of the first game. I suspected at the beginning that the handicap configuration is going to be difficult to apply, and the flow of the game seems to confirm it. Those ten stones surround 2 points of territory, so white has to try to make about 150 points from the influence provided from the strong group if it were to be comparable with a more normal 10-stone handicap configuration.

Another difficulty lies with the fact that about 95% of the value of the stones comes from the influence radiating from the centre, and therefore black has to be very active in making sure that the presence of those ten stones are clearly felt (e.g. through driving opponent groups into it when attacking or connecting own groups to it when being attacked). This places the onus to being mindful of full board considerations and not settling situations too early into white's hands (compared to a more traditional configuration where the more experienced place has to be careful and not settle the position too early, which will make the game very difficult on other areas of the board).

Oca, please let me know if you have any questions or would like any clarification on either the above or any of my comments made during the game.

Any comments or questions from observers would be greatly appreciated

Edit: by the way, yeah, "black" and "white" is quite confusing XD

SmoothOper · **#43**

I think I read somewhere on senseis that the group in the center is devastating.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

illluck · **#44**

By the way, the second game is currently in progress at http://online-go.com/game/586484

All comments and questions welcome

oca · **#45**

Game#2 just completed... I did a bit better then the first time... but :blackeye:

Big thanks to illluck for taking time to play me, that really challenge me, that's so great :clap:

!
It's time for me to study these two games and read carrfully all of illluck's comments.

@illluck, If it's ok for you, I also would like to try one more game, the standard 9 stones placement, and see how it compare to what we just played.

illluck · **#46**

Of course, feel free to send the challenge

oca · **#47**

Great

, here we go, game #3 standard 9 stones handicap
http://online-go.com/game/588995

oca · **#48**

oca wrote:

Great

, here we go, game #3 standard 9 stones handicap
http://online-go.com/game/588995

Game completed, really tryied my best but loose again :blackeye:

Congratulation to illluck who win by 20.5 pts.

Playing a stronger player with handicap stones is really a nice exercice !

Time for me to review all these 3 games... so much material for me to study

, thx again illluck ! :bow:

Mike Novack · **#49**

oca wrote:

Playing a stronger player with handicap stones is really a nice exercice !

Just my opinion, but I think it's the best way to learn. Go isn't about placing stones to "do something" but about placing stones that do something with respect to stones already on the board.

Playing high handicap games against a much stronger player is how to learn about "keeping stones connected".

Playing low handicap games against a stronger player how to learn without picking up the bad habits of your own level (which would happen when playing opponents of your own level). And with the more open board of a low handicap game, not so terribly different than an even game.

Bill Spight · **#50**

Mike Novack wrote:

oca wrote:

Playing a stronger player with handicap stones is really a nice exercice !

Just my opinion, but I think it's the best way to learn. Go isn't about placing stones to "do something" but about placing stones that do something with respect to stones already on the board.

Playing high handicap games against a much stronger player is how to learn about "keeping stones connected".

Playing low handicap games against a stronger player how to learn without picking up the bad habits of your own level (which would happen when playing opponents of your own level). And with the more open board of a low handicap game, not so terribly different than an even game.

IMO, during your first year of play you should play opponents at least 5 stones stronger than you, if possible. After you have played for three years you should make sure to play some games where you give 5 or more stones, to return the favor.

illluck · **#51**

oca wrote:

Great

, here we go, game #3 standard 9 stones handicap
http://online-go.com/game/588995

Game completed, really tryied my best but loose again :blackeye:

Congratulation to illluck who win by 20.5 pts.

Playing a stronger player with handicap stones is really a nice exercice !

Time for me to review all these 3 games... so much material for me to study

, thx again illluck ! :bow:

Thanks for the games

I definitely felt you getting stronger in the course of those three games. Not sure if you noticed it, but I was definitely scrambling desperately in that last game :p

Feel free to ask if you have any questions about the games, and I'll be more than happy to play more games with different handicap patterns if you are interested.

oca · **#52**

illluck wrote:

Thanks for the games

I definitely felt you getting stronger in the course of those three games. Not sure if you noticed it, but I was definitely scrambling desperately in that last game :p
Feel free to ask if you have any questions about the games, and I'll be more than happy to play more games with different handicap patterns if you are interested.

Thank you, at some point I was thinking... hey there is still no two eyes for white... should I try something... and then the fear came back and the answer was : no, to much liberty... I should not be to much agressive...

illluck wrote:

Feel free to ask if you have any questions about the games

- Was my playing right to answer :w21:

?
- white 29 : would E17 be a better reply then my C17
- black 40 : is double turn right in this case ?
- white 161 :is there a better way to replay here

illluck wrote:

and I'll be more than happy to play more games with different handicap patterns if you are interested.

So nice

, maybe let's try SmoothOper's one, I will send you the challenge next week :

illluck · **#53**

oca wrote:

- Was my playing right to answer :w21:

?
- white 29 : would E17 be a better reply then my C17
- black 40 : is double turn right in this case ?
- white 161 :is there a better way to replay here

1) As I mentioned in the malkovich log, I think taking the 3-3 point at C3 there was the right response - then it is hard for white to find a reply. There are too many possible variations to list, but the idea is that C3 would deny the white stone at move 21 easy base in corner and also strengthen black's shape in the area. Note that white 19 and 21 are both weak and white can only hope to protect one after black takes C3.

2) I would probably play E17 myself, though I think C17 is also ok. E17 gives white more chances to complicate the game (for example, with a cross-cut at E16 or with a hane at either C16 or E18).

3) I think the double hane is not too bad, though it does give up a lot on the bottom. I think the issue came earlier - instead of R4 you can consider P2 at move 38. The idea is that R6 doesn't really accomplish much if you play R4, but serves a purpose when you play P2. One key idea in Go is to make sure your moves work efficiently with previous stones played.

4) I think S15 is the cleanest way to kill. Then if white R17 (strongest resistance that I can see) black just Q18 and white can't make 2 eyes. The precise sequences might be a bit too complicated for you at this stage, but the local situation is closely tied to an important corner shape. Refer to http://senseis.xmp.net/?LGroup if you are interested. This also is a good demonstration of one (of many) reason that life and death problems are extremely important - all I had to do was to read out that white can't get a better shape than the L-group in the corner if black S15 and stop. It would be considerably more challenging to read the thing from beginning to end without knowing the L-group.

oca · **#54**

Quote:

oca : Was my playing right to answer :w21:

?

illluck : As I mentioned in the malkovich log, I think taking the 3-3 point at C3 there was the right response

Oh ok, I miss interpreted the malkovich log, and was thinking that you considered C3 for yourself...
so maybe something like that... or :b4:

at "a"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X a 5 . . . X . $$ | . . 2 1 3 . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]

Quote:

oca : black 40 : is double turn right in this case ?

illluck : ... I think the issue came earlier - instead of R4 you can consider P2 at move 38.

For sure P2... why didn't I saw that... seems so easy when someone tells you...

Quote:

oca : white 161 :is there a better way to replay here

illluck : I think S15 is the cleanest way to kill. Then if white R17 (strongest resistance that I can see) black just Q18 and white can't make 2 eyes. The precise sequences might be a bit too complicated for you at this stage, but the local situation is closely tied to an important corner shape. Refer to http://senseis.xmp.net/?LGroup if you are interested.

I use to read something a about The L-group in the corner, so for now I just know that "it's not that easy".
I'm still working with the basic "one"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ . . Y . . Y . . X . . X . . . Y Y . . X X . . . X X . . . $$ . . . . . Y . . Y . . Y X . . Y Y . . X Y X . . X Y X . . $$ . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

That help me with my bottom left group, (even if I missed the seki...)

EdLee · **#55**

Hi oca, sorry if you have already seen these comments elsewhere.
See also Toothpaste ( :b14:

).
See also Miai ( :b16:

variation, and :b22:

variation).

EdLee · **#56**

More about the above 9-stone game:

oca · **#57**

Wow ! thanks EdLee :tmbup:

, I will check all that !
Toothpaste ? Nice, I even didn't know about this one...

Mike Novack · **#58**

Oca, I'd say that this is precisely how you could best improve most rapidly. As Ed pointed out, repeated failure to prevent broken shape, and how to maintain connection is the lesson to be learned by playing nine stone games against a strong opponent.

If you can't get enough nine stone games against a human, at your level you could always try using a computer program opponent. The danger of learning bad habits from a computer program opponent is minimal when the program is set to be playing at a level that much stronger than you are. Remember, the goal is to learn, not to win a lot of games. So if you do this you want the program set to a level a bit stronger than none stones better than you are. Not too much stronger than that so you get crushed. But stringer enough so that if you don't learn not to make these mistake moves you lose.

oca · **#59**

Mike Novack wrote:

Oca, I'd say that this is precisely how you could best improve most rapidly. As Ed pointed out, repeated failure to prevent broken shape, and how to maintain connection is the lesson to be learned by playing nine stone games against a strong opponent.

Sure, but connections tends to goes faster on the board then in my brain ;-)

I just joined a go club and they gave this book "Handicap GO, Elementary Go Series, Vol. 7".
I'm only on page 20, but I like it very much so far, I hope it will help me connecting my stones better.

Quote:

If you can't get enough nine stone games against a human, at your level you could always try using a computer program opponent. The danger of learning bad habits from a computer program opponent is minimal when the program is set to be playing at a level that much stronger than you are. Remember, the goal is to learn, not to win a lot of games. So if you do this you want the program set to a level a bit stronger than none stones better than you are. Not too much stronger than that so you get crushed. But stringer enough so that if you don't learn not to make these mistake moves you lose.

I ofen play against igowin on iphone. I set the compteur to it's maximum level (3kyu) and with 19x19, I start to lose at 5 stones handicap...

I also like to play even game on 13x13, that fit well with the time I have in the train...
I lose most of the time, either I'm just to small (3 to 5 pts) or if I try to be more agressiv, I usually lose them all :blackeye:

BUT I still won 3-4 games... so I know I can beat him :rambo:

oca · **#60**

EdLee wrote:

... See also Miai ...

"Miai" is very special to me, as it was my first post on this forum.
viewtopic.php?p=159334#p159334

Even if most of the time I'm only using it to it's most basic form (kosumi connection) I understand it's way more powerfull then that...

Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

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