How much should I avoid learning Josekis as a beginner?

supernerd · #1

Greetings,

I have heard that double digit kyus should not study Joseki but wait until anywhere from 9k to 1d depending on who you ask. Supposedly it is to avoid the trap of rote learning patterns without really understanding why they work or how context alters their application. (EDIT: I am 19 ky on kgs btw)

I was intending to wait until at least 9k before learning josekis. Unfortunately I accidently learned the basic Joseki for san-san invasion when the oppoenent has a single stone on 4-4, because someone showed me this on kgs. Now I cannot ever unsee it. (I have tried) :-?

Is this a bad thing? I have been able to use this joseki succesfully as both attacker and defender in a couple games, and punish a few opponents who didn't follow the joseki. It is such a basic and intuitive sequence that I feel I really do understand it. Also, know I don't know how I lived without it, since it has been so useful.

I also have begun to involentarily pick up the start of a couple few joseki against the knights jump attack against the hoshi from exposure to this in kgs game reviews. I am tempted to try and learn some of these because I get these attacks alot and usually fumble blindly against them. However, I have been wary because of the above advice.

Today, however, curiosity and the allure of forbidden knowledge got the better of me, and I peeked into my friend's basic book on Joeski for about an hour. :study:

This was really interesting but there are so many complex things I see why I should hold off. :shock:

However, I think I could still benefit from learning just two or three more of the really simple and common joseki's at my current level, and not harm myself too much.

What do you guys think? :scratch:

illluck · #2

I think you are talking the advice a tad too literally

The idea is that it's not very productive to go out your way to "learn" joseki by rote memorization in isolation (partly because if you do it that way you will generally have difficulties if your opponent deviates), but instead to understand common sequences and such through application in real games. From what you are describing, it seems like you are learning joseki the right way

Bill Spight · #3

Learning joseki is not a bad thing. As long as you don't play them.

The danger is that joseki can restrict your thinking. You learn what is right in general and apply it in situations where it is wrong.

IMX I can see the problem of restricted thinking among SDKs, whether they have studied joseki or not. They struggle to decide which is better, A or B, when they have not even thought about C, which is correct. The situation is even worse when A is joseki, so that they play it automatically.

As a beginner you can make rapid progress by learning standard plays, including joseki. But the most important thing is to think for yourself.

Uberdude · #4

supernerd wrote:

basic Joseki for san-san invasion when the oppoenent has a single stone on 4-4 ... that I feel I really do understand it.

A little test

Question 1:

:w1:

is a mistake, it should be a first. Why? How should black take advantage?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . a X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Question 2:

Is black 2 good or bad? Why?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . O X . . . . . . $$ | . 1 X . . . . . . $$ | . 2 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Question 3:

Why is push once at :w1:

1 joseki

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . O X . . . . . . $$ | . 1 X . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

but pushing another time at :w3:

is bad?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . O X . . . . . . $$ | . 1 X . . . . . . $$ | . 3 2 . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Question 4:

Why does black play :b4:

? Why not a? Why not tenuki?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 1 2 . . . . $$ | . . O X a 4 . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . O X . . . . . . $$ | . O X . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Studying joseki (I think that's a better verb than learning) means understanding the moves so you can answer these questions (and more!) correctly.

Mike Novack · #5

What Uberdude has posted is very much to the point.

When you say "learn joseki", precisely what do you mean by that. If what you mean is just memorizing sequences (the right next move assuming that the opponent made the previous "right move") to save time (for when more thinking is necessary) even then you would need to know the variants in terms of which goes with what outside situation (the whole board matters)

But if what was meant was studying to understand why each move in the sequence is "joseki" and when variation is possible (and why; what outside factors change what is feasible, for example, ladder breakers) and what to do if the opponent doesn't play the expected move --- well that's another kettle of fish entirely.

That sort of study isn't just about joseki.

illluck · #6

Uberdude wrote:

Question 1:

:w1:

is a mistake, it should be a first. Why? How should black take advantage?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . a X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Is that one really a mistake? Do you mean the below instead?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 1 2 . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . a X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Edit:

Uberdude · #7

illluck wrote:

Is that one really a mistake? Do you mean the below instead?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 1 2 . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . a X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Yes it's a mistake*, though the question I wanted supernerd to answer was indeed after white connecting at 3.

*

supernerd · #8

Here are my answers. It wasn't immediately obvious; I had to think a lot and play stuff out and I'm still not sure their right. Maybe I don't understand this joseki as well as I had thought. :scratch:

oren · #9

No reason to avoid learning anything you want to learn. If you think studying joseki will be fun, do it.

oca · **#10**

Hey nice exercice, here are my answers too...

Bill Spight · **#11**

illluck wrote:

Uberdude wrote:

Question 1:

:w1:

is a mistake, it should be a first. Why? How should black take advantage?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . a X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Is that one really a mistake? Do you mean the below instead?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 1 2 . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . a X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Edit:

Uberdude · **#12**

Here is a better version of question 1:

White thinks this is the joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 1 2 . . . . $$ | . . O X . 4 . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . 5 X . . . . . . $$ | . 7 6 . . . . . . $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

But he is wrong and made a mistake, but also black let white get away with it. What did white do wrong and how should black have punished?

Uberdude · **#13**

Marks for supernerd:

Uberdude · **#14**

oca, in question 3 your 8 doesn't kill, can you see how to live? Given that why push?

oca · **#15**

Uberdude wrote:

oca, in question 3 your 8 doesn't kill, can you see how to live? Given that why push?

by push, do you mean :w9:

like that ?

supernerd · **#16**

Quote:

Here is a better version of question 1:

White thinks this is the joseki:

...

But he is wrong and made a mistake, but also black let white get away with it. What did white do wrong and how should black have punished?

I think black maybe can kill or at least severely constrain white with something like this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 1 2 6 . . . $$ | . . O X 5 . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . 4X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Abyssinica · **#17**

My answer to the last question:

Uberdude · **#18**

oca wrote:

Uberdude wrote:

oca, in question 3 your 8 doesn't kill, can you see how to live? Given that why push?

by push, do you mean :w9:

like that ?

No, I mean why play this push at :w1:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . O X . . . . . . $$ | . 1 X . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

given that we can live (it's an L+2 group) without it as you showed:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W 5 tenuki $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 1 2 . . . . $$ | . . O X . 4 . . . $$ | . 7 O X . . . . . $$ | . O X . . . . . . $$ | . 6 X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Uberdude · **#19**

supernerd wrote:

I think black maybe can kill or at least severely constrain white with something like this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 1 2 6 . . . $$ | . . O X 5 . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . 4 X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Hmm, But black has quite some problems on the outside too, I'm not sure what happens now! There is a simpler move for black 4 that gives an easy good result (better than the joseki for black).

Bill Spight · **#20**

Since we have moved along, I am not hiding this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . $$ | . . O X . 4 . . . $$ | . 2 O X . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Supernerd's :b2:

is quite interesting. Now if :w3:

connects, after :b4:

White is still in trouble.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 4 . . . . $$ | . 3 O X . . . . . $$ | 7 2 O X . . . . . $$ | . 5 X . . . . . . $$ | . 6 8 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

So I think that White plays :w3:

and now Black switches to :b4:

. White can take :b2:

and live in sente, as in the joseki, but now if White plays :w9:

, Black can play elsewhere.

How much should I avoid learning Josekis as a beginner?

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